It is not dribbles & runs read the link again For Figo is it just dribbles(attempted or successful is an entirely different story) although i agree for the rest of the players including Zidane it is dribbles & runs https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2213328/zidane-set-to-be-a-real-smash Unless you are suggesting they made an editorial mistake? that would require proof in the form of a retraction.
Thank you my friend. Tropeiro is severely. Severely underrating this player. To put him in the Suarez category is egregious
The likelihood of that is slim/non existent in the exact same article they attribute Ryan Giggs with 252 dribbles(no mention of runs again)in the 2000/01 PL at a 58% conversion rate https://www.transfermarkt.com/ryan-giggs/leistungsdaten/spieler/3406/saison/2000/wettbewerb/GB1 That will give him 5.9 dribble’s completed per 90 in the 2000/01 PL and there is no doubt in my mind that Ryan Giggs up until at least 2001 was still that kind of player here he is completely shredding Fiorentina as late as 2000 the game that is remembered for that Gabriel batistuta thunderbolt
I can confirm that in temrs of volume Figo was number one from 2000 to 2003/4 ish. The other high volume dribblers would have been Henry, Rui costa, Denilson, Zidane from the data that I have seen. Shortly after, Cristiano would have been number 1
Luis Suarez was a great player no doubt Phenomenal I’d say during periods Very different type of players though Suarez was the epitome of try and try again until you succeed He had a 39% dribbling accuracy rate in his famous 2013/14 season https://www.whoscored.com/Players/22221/History/Luis-Suárez 39% dribbling accuracy is bad/average if you compare to it the very very best but it isn’t even close to being the worst. In the 2006/07 CL Ricardo Kaka had a 23% dribbling accuracy rate(1.4 dribbles completed) This the one and only time he produced in his entire career what can be considered a truly elite goalscoring campaign(10 goals playing as a second striker) When Suarez managed to pull it off though there are very few like him(the range of finishing in particular) A Beast with his mouth and with his feet in and around the penalty area he was not an inferior dribbler to Ronaldo Nazario IMO This with the end product(assist) against PL champions Manchester United in 2010/11 is Tropeiro really underselling Luis Figo? I genuinely don’t think so he is just a hater of Portuguese players(there is a long history )and at least he is being consistent.
I am here making assumptions, just like you. We are reading the same source. If we assume the following: 1) It is data for UEFA Champions League during the 2000/2001 season (as hinted by the Bayern Munich exit). 2) Ryan Giggs is credited with having 90 dribble attempts in 680 minutes of play (spread over 11 games) in the UEFA Champions League alone. We are left with Ryan Giggs having around 12 dribble attempts per 90 minutes. I have just checked through 2009/2010 to 2023/2024 seasons of the UEFA Champions League on WhoScored, and there is not a single player who registers 12 dribbles attempts per 90 minutes with a game count being over 10 games. The numbers per 90 minutes, for Luis Figo is not quite as striking, but it is still a ridiculously high number of attempts for any player, especially somebody who sustains his season run deep into the knock-out rounds. I do not have any proof, but the numbers just jump out at me, and at the bare minimum I think there needs to be some kind of caution, before extrapolating conclusions out of the numbers. I do not have better sources of statistical reference to gauge Luis Figo's dribbling prowess, especially from his earlier years, so it is still a point of reference, just not compatible with OPTA numbers or any conclusions that results from direct comparisons with them, in my opinion.
Ryan giggs in the 2000/01 CL 680 minutes played 12 dribbles attempted per 90 Neymar in the 2017/18 CL 630 minutes played 12 attempted dribbles per 90 played Bayern Munich twice and Real Madrid once https://www.whoscored.com/Players/50835/History/Neymar Hulk in the 2014/15 CL 535 minutes played 11.8 attempted dribbles per 90 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/16886/History/Hulk He reached the R16 and played prime atletico Madrid twice and Dortmund twice https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/hulk/leistungsdaten/spieler/80562/saison/2013/wettbewerb/CL we don’t have the data for Ryan giggs success rate in 2000/01 but in the 2003/04 CL it was 72% and in 2004/05 it dropped all the way down to 36%(Sofascore) I’m open to the idea that the generation preceding Messi/Ronaldo had more technical/prolific dribblers on average The defenders being better too is probably something that needs to be explored further.
As a last take on this I’d say that it’s not a given that Neymar Jr was dribbling more than the top tier dribblers of that era(the one before Henry and Ronaldinho really took off). I think your scepticism if I can call it that probably stems from some preconceived notions that you may already have. Ryan giggs in his peak was definitely faster than Neymar with the ball I’d go as far as to say that he was ALOT faster than Neymar for most of his career at PSG here at 30~years old and already beginning to ‘slow down’ In 1992-1997 no one could catch him He was a literal cheat code the off field antics have completely distorted the perception of his on field performances He was the second coming of George best A winger extraordinaire And Luis figo evidentially had the superior close control vs Neymar And for a player like Figo who spent most of his career in less congested areas of the pitch it is very easy to imagine that he was slicing through fullbacks like a knife through butter.
1) 10 games threshold was done with the intention of ruling-out those who got knocked-out before the quarter-finals, because what shocked me about the numbers coming from Ryan Giggs and Luis Figo, was not just the raw number, but the fact that it came simultaneously in the same season, from players that ran deep into the tournament. It is not a common occurence at all. 2) Hulk did not play a single minute of UEFA Champions League Knock-Out games during that particular season. 3) My concern was pointed at the assumption that these numbers suggests that Luis Figo a superior dribbler to Neymar, at which point I have to ask, does this line of thinking extend to Ryan Giggs also? These are all potent dribblers, but in my opinion, the discussion becomes less valuable the more respect we give to this particular data-set. 4) I think I made a mistake addressing this issue. It does not shed light on Luis Figo, rather how our brains perceive the legitimacy of a data-set. Luis Figo might have been better at abusing at shifting the balance of his opponents, but I do not see the need to overly stick the discussion to that particular aspect of dribbling past opponents only. Neymar executes his dribbles at a faster frame-rate, and is more explosive in my opinion. Figo might utilize what he has better, but Neymar is simply born with more, and in terms of their effectiveness (simply for dribbling) I think Neymar comes out ahead, and while future statistics could prove me wrong, I do not think this is the hill to die on (Sky Sports dribble tallies). 5) They are comparable levels of players in my opinion, and I do agree Luis Figo will benefit from the data-set that will be released hopefully later. But if we isolate the discussion about their dribbling, I think Neymar comes out ahead, albeit without much confidence on my part.
I simply cannot agree that Neymar's dribbling was necessarily more effective. The creative burden on wingers in late 90s esrly 2000s was tremendous. The offensive game was literally predicated on their ability to beat defenders on the wing and place central passes. In that regard we can be sure that from the location of the dribbles and immediate end result that Figo was likely the more effective dribbler - especially when Neymar has made it quite a habit of overdribbling (dribbles when superior solutions are readily available)
To your last point, that is likely the case. There are broad tacical playstyle changes however that would have limited dribbling volume across the board - namely the growth of passing networks and volume with a consequent mean reduction in ball time per possessiom for players. A more vertical game would have also forced more dribbling situations for dribblers to take advantage of. I think I also posted data showing a progressive reduction in dribble volume over last 10 years - which while not covering the period of interest - if extrapolated would have certainly backed my above point.
People are acting like if Figo had the same pace of prime Neymar, probably even post prime Neymar (after mid 2020) was still faster than prime Figo and Neymar slowed down a lot, in big part of 19/20 season Neymar could still fly around the pitch, opening a big gap in distance after he beating a player, so a player couldn't track him down. Figo would never opening such gap in distance after beating a player. Also what about the figures? Neymar was a 4.5 dribbler per 90 player with ~55% accuracy (Whoscored), his prime dribbling and carrying version (mid 2015- mid 2021) is probably over 5 dribbles per 90 with ~60% dribbling accuracy. Figo in what can appear in his still prime elite dribbling (surely not after 2004) was 4-4.5 dribbles per 90 with ~60% accuracy. So what's really the difference in number? When the volume and the % was similar, Neymar was still the better and more dangereous ball carrier to this his way better pace. Thats pretty clear watching video of both. Both were very good passers, but Neymar's vision was better and Neymar was a much better goalscorer on top of that.
I think Figo was a very smart dribbler and fast as well, but Neymar is clearly more talented, which means when Neymar was at his best form, he was a better dribbler than Figo.
Did you watch young Figo mate (mid-ish 90s at the latest)? He was fast!!! Neymar is/was not majorly fast to be honest is he? I do think (helped by looking a little more at the video you posted and another Neymar dribbling one) that Neymar may have more solo goals overall, helped possibly by some extra composure/bravado approaching the goal (though at times also by less than stellar defensive play? - and maybe indeed at times he over-does the solo play but it pays him back in some respects when it works?). I feel like Figo will have the advantage in regularity and lack of losing the ball when dribbling, but without the detailed stats it's hard to be sure (not to say the stats decide everything anyway as every situation on the pitch is different). For a clip re: Figo's speed as a relatively young player I think using that assists video again is maybe the most efficient way - on assist number 16 (not a great example for dribbling, but more for the speed as well as showing he could make pinpoint crosses with his 'wrong' leg too) at 1:22 you can get an idea of the pace he had with the way he breezes past the defender having knocked the ball ahead I think:
@Letmepost if I'm understanding correctly the numbers Carlito refers to are OPTA numbers, but the doubt would be whether they changed their criteria (for dribbles as opposed to dribbles&runs - the Figo/Giggs 2001 numbers are referred to as dribbles...albeit can we 100% rule out they didn't write it that way for short?). The other doubt could be whether the numbers refer to attempts or successful dribbles but we are all assuming it must be attempts I think.
Please don't take my rep of this as taking sides against you @Tropeiro by the way (and I seem to remember on other topics we were more aligned in ideas anyway, sometimes against what Carlito said too I suppose!), but I think it's well worth the rep on this occasion for sure due to Carlito's work on the GIFS and the IMO useful highlighting of these kinds of plays....
Ball distribution maybe asking a little too much of Giovanni but the vision is top class He had the brain of a top tier playmaker Most of the offensive minded players that played for Barcelona in the 1990s(those under Cruyff,Bobby robson and Van gaal) had world class passing capabilities hristo stoichkov was a world class crosser Romarios one touch play was elite and he could produce the occasional throughball Micheal laudrup was possibly the greatest through ball specialist in the history of football Rivaldo I’d put as the third best crosser of the ball in his generation after David Beckham and Luis figo Luis enrique and Giovanni I haven’t watched enough of to say much but it appears positive aswell(particularly for the Brazilian)
And the technical quality. In this aspect, also considering how good he could be with his left, I think for sure he was more talented than Neymar. In ball manipulation perhaps not though, which is probably what others are referring to (even if I would go with Figo as the better dribbler, despite some notable instances where Neymar does dribble very smoothly and elusively though opposition defences or tricks/skills his way past defenders; Figo could also dribble smoothly and incisively in the middle of the pitch by the way, not only on the wings).
It's nothing to settle any argument because it's only values decided by gaming enthusiasts (who are also football fans and football history enthusiasts too though), and for me Figo's peak set is missing (Barcelona era) and there isn't a PSG related Neymar set either here, but perhaps interesting to post PES stats entries of Figo and Neymar (I think the speed values could be in dispute and contradicting the 'cards' allocation too maybe though): Pes Miti del Calcio - View topic - Luís FIGO 2000-2002 (also contains Sporting Lisbon set, and Inter Milan set lower down) Pes Miti del Calcio - View topic - NEYMAR 2010-2015 Without looking at the Inter Milan set (not to say Figo wasn't pretty good for an older player in that period, and I think a bit slimmed down and therefore more reactive again compared to the end of his Real Madrid time even), but just comparing the Real Madrid/Sporting Lisbon Figo sets to the Santos/Barcelona Neymar sets for the highest values.... Balance: Figo (RM) Stamina: Neymar (Barca) Top speed: Neymar (Santos) Acceleration: Neymar (Santos) Response: Neymar (Barca) Agility: Neymar (Barca) Dribble accuracy: Figo (RM) Dribble speed: Neymar (Barca) Short pass accuracy: Figo (RM) Short pass speed: Figo (RM) Long pass accuracy: Figo (RM) Long pass speed: Figo (RM & Sporting) Shot accuracy: Neymar (Barca) Shot power: Figo (RM) Shot technique: Neymar (Barca) Free kick accuracy: Figo (RM) Curling: Figo (RM) Header: Figo (Sporting) Jump: Figo (Sporting) Technique: Figo (RM) Teamwork: Figo (RM) The cards and 'special abilities' on Figo's Sporting Lisbon set: P03: Trickster P04: Darting Run S02: Outside Curve S05: Speed Merchant S08: Turning Skills S12: Scissors Skills SPECIAL ABILITIES: Dribbling - Tactical Dribbling - Passing - Side - Penalties - Outside Figo's Real Madrid set: CARDS: P05: Trickster P09: Early Cross S02: Passer S04: PK Taker S05: 1 Touch Play S14: Quick Turn S16: 1 Footed Roulette S18: Cross Over Turn S19: Quick Scissors Dribble S20: Scooping SPECIAL ABILITIES: Dribbling - Tactical Dribbling - Passing - Penalties - 1 Touch Pass Neymar's Santos set: CARDS: P03: Trickster P05: Mazing Run P10: Incisive Run S03: 1-on-1 Finish S05: 1-touch play S14: Quick Turn S15: Shoulder Feint Skills S16: Roulette Skills S17: Flip Flap Skills S19: Scissors Skills S20: Flicking Skills SPECIAL ABILITIES: Dribbling - Tactical Dribbling - 1 on 1 Scoring - 1-touch Play - Side Neymar's Santos set: P03: Trickster P05: Mazing Run P10: Incisive Run S05: 1-touch play S14: Quick Turn S15: Shoulder Feint Skills S17: Flip Flap Skills S19: Scissors Skills S20: Flicking Skills SPECIAL ABILITIES: Dribbling - Tactical Dribbling - 1-touch Play To be honest I think Figo's weak foot accuracy as shown on the Sporting Lisbon set needs to higher I would say, and actually he should have AM as his main position even in that set (albeit he used the wings a lot already), but I think in some respects they have made some good calls anyway.
The comments are perhaps worth reading too, below the data sets (with questions about lack of Figo Barcelona set and Neymar PSG set indeed and to be fair a suggested and realistic reduction in pace but increase in technique suggested for the latter).
Maybe it's the case with Figo that a single Barcelona set would be unrealistic anyway (with the earlier period more aligned with his Sporting set and the end of his Barcelona career more aligned with the start of his Real Madrid career) so that's why there isn't anything there....
Just to preface my answer with a clarification - I hadn't made a call on who was more talented overall between Figo and Neymar (just Figo in terms of the technical quality related to playing the ball as a playmaker, but I was confusing in my post; and I wasn't disagreeing that in terms of the ball manipulation it can be Neymar). I would say though that Ronaldinho was more talented than Figo technically/generally, but not necessarily better as a player (although at absolute peak there would be a decent argument he was). In some aspects, including crossing and lofted passes too I think for example, Figo would be more talented in that comparison too, but I don't think many at all were more talented than Ronaldinho overall (if talking about on the ball talents as would be normal I think, not all-round abilities as total players).