Has Argentina surpassed Italy as the third historical football power?

Interesting topic. I’d say since the WC holds so much more weight than all other trophies, having 1 more makes a significant enough difference. If Argentina wins a 4th anytime soon though, they easily jump Italy due to all their other successes you mentioned. This WC has definitely cemented Argentina in the top 4 though. Uruguay vs France would be an interesting discussion as well for the 5th spot.

 

I personally would say yes.... Because look at the time when italy won their first 2 WC.s

 

I guess the time Uruguay would their only World Cups would be even more relevant though, in that respect (or as relevant, but weighing more because it was the only two, and their Olympic fame and success was even earlier), re: the idea of them contending for 4th historical football nation with France, as per the post above yours....

Ironically perhaps (I don't say this to argue against your point, but just as an interesting tangent) some might say Argentina might have had a team/era of players soon after Italy's World Cup wins of the 1930s (or starting during the same time) that has more of a claim as Argentina's all-time best/greatest than Italy's 1930s generation does as Italy's all-time best/greatest. But yeah, in terms of World Cup success it's obviously different.

 

Thanks for the rep ganapordiego - I remember/realise I mis-quoted you a bit (you said contending for 5th not 4th!).

 

Yeah if you look at modern era, then one leans towards both Argentina & France (the latter vs Uruguay). The 4 stars for Uruguay due to those 2 Olympics does further complicate things though in my opinion if we’re looking through a completely historical lens (while not WC trophies, the fact that those 2 Olympics have been considered world titles by Fifa holds some weight in my opinion). What I will say though, is I am happier than ever to be of Argentinian descent and wouldn’t trade the most recent star for multiple stars in the distant past.

 

I think last decade was horrendous for Italy. The worst ever for any top nation.

 

If we're going to start discrediting World Cups, Argentina 1978 is the most rigged World Cup of all time.1986 we're talking about blatant cheating with the Hand of God goal in the QF. And Qatar 2022 is not without its fair share of accusations for referees favouring Argentina. Now, I don't believe we should start discrediting World Cups, but if we did, Argentina isn't a nation that would come away from that discussion in a particularly strong position.

 

Missing consecutive World Cups (2018 & 2022) has damaged Italy's reputation, obviously. Still, Italy has four World Cups, and two Europeans Championships. In the last 16 years, Italy has won 1 World Cup, 1 European Championship, and 1 Euro runners-up. It's actually not too shabby. But it doesn't tell the whole story. Italy has won only 1 WC game (vs England 2014) and have not played a single WC knockout match since lifting the trophy in 2006. This is why Argentina has surpassed Italy in the historical World Cup table. Italy's Euro performances have remained strong, however, even with a poor team like in 2016.

Overall, Italy remains the third greatest football nation for now. The margins are very thin. Between 2006 and 2014, Italy was the second best alone on four stars. One trophy is all it takes, and sometimes it just comes down to a PK shootout, like Argentina vs France, or Brazil vs Italy in 1994, which if it went in Italy's direction, Italy has 5 World Cups and Brazil instead has 4. In fact, I think Italy really failed to capitalize on Serie A's late 80/early 90s dominance with a major trophy. Third place on home soil in 1990 and runners-up in 1994 were golden opportunities. In fact, Italy had an extremely talented and experienced squad virtually every year between 1982 and 2006, with only those two World Cups to show for it.

 

No. Argentina is far away, all Argentina World Cups are suspects.

 

Tell that the guys in the argentina forum...... They think they are the best in the world by far and everyone other is shit

 

The arguable underperformance of Italy in the last 25 years (even at the two tournaments they won) is a rather flawed benchmark to take. Compare it instead with the other (corrupt, coalescing?) 'FIFA royalty' and cartel.

Besides, it is of little value to compare tournaments when it was in its infancy (the euros before 1976; world cups before 1958) to the modern day equivalents.

Uruguay only needed one win (and play four games, including qualification) for the World Cup! Only a win in the final game was really necessary.

Thread (you can see here the flag of Italy, at 14th):

The 32-team World Cup era is over. Some really basic numbers that I found vaguely interesting / are decent quiz content for your mates:

Most games:
1. 🇧🇷 41
2. 🇫🇷🇩🇪 39
4. 🇦🇷 36
5 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 33
6. 🇭🇷🇳🇱🇪🇸 30
9. 🇲🇽🇰🇷 27
11. 🇵🇹 26
12. 🇯🇵 25
13. 🇺🇸 23
14. 🇧🇪🇮🇹🇺🇾 22
17. 🇩🇰🇨🇭 19
19. 🇦🇺🇨🇷🇳🇬 17

— Omar Chaudhuri (@OmarChaudhuri) December 19, 2022

Comparing these two close-ish siblings (Italy, Argentina) over a period of 150 years is a bit trivial.

Argentina is next to Brazil and Germany the only country to have always been in the FIFA ExCom since the early 1960s. Often delivers a vice-president. The large diaspora at strategic places as the USA creates the remainder of the incentives and cover for abuses (100% inflation: that's the real 'hand of god' perhaps..). Becoming number three (if so) is a logical result and consequence of the balance of power (if not financially) in the last half century.

 

Considering the game has always grown more global and more competitive, it sounds pretty fair to me to value better recent achievements than past ones.

From 1872 to 1902, the game was only played within the United Kingdom. So yeah it was dominated by England and Scotland, but you can't put that performance at the same level as what happened in the last 30 years, from 1992 to 2022.

 

Italy's World Cup win in 1934 also had some fair numbers of controversies.

 

Can we stop this whole rigged crap please ? Maradona destroyed every Team single-handedly in 86 except in the Final. Argentina in 2022 completely outplayed every Team after the Mexico Game.with The Ref giving Netherlands a year of Extra Time so they could equalize and France 2 penalties in the Final.

 

Italy was also weak from 1950 until 1968.

Argentina on the other hand, did not contest the WC Finals from 1934 to 1954. When they reentered the tournament, they played poorly until 1966. They did qualify for the 1970 and played poorly 1974. Of course, we remembered them that year for another reason. However, Argentina produced some of the greatest footballers in the 1940's and 1950's. So it was hard to judge Argentina in the periods.

 

In addition to your comments, talking about league strength.

I think, Italian league was a top-5 league between 1949-1969, a top-3 since 1982 and arguably a top-5 between 1931-39.

Argentina a top-3 league since 1937-1947, a top-5 league between 1967-1982 and arguably between 1994-2003

 

Come on bro, they literally reached the final of EURO2012 and then won the EURO2020 (or is it 2021?). That's more recent success than Brazil.

England would love to have such a horrendous decade

 

Argentina's WC legacy was built literally in one career span, Maradona's, even if he didn't participate in 1978. The period from 1978-1990 was as good a run as any nation ever had in WC history, and it's pretty crazy that Maradona was there the entire time.

We're seeing something similar now where all of Argentina's recent success can all be captured by Messi's career.

Intriguing how Argentina didn't do much in the World Cup in the period between these two careers.

But for some reason, the period between these two careers was a successful one in Copa America when they won in 91 and 93 without Maradona, and Messi only just won his first late in his career (although tbf he has reached finals before then).

 

Argentina still had great teams in the period between Maradona and Messi. Their 1998, 2002 and 2006 WC team was at least good on paper. The 2002 team was a pre-tournament favorite, but flopped in the Finals. In Copa America, they lost two finals to a very good Brazilian team.

Of course, italy also had great teams throughout the early 1990's. Maldini, Vialli, Barsei and Baggio could have won something. Their run in the 1990 and 1994 World Cup Finals should also take into account. The Italians might see both results with a broken heart, but that period was not an unsuccessful period. As comparison, Italy might have won the Euro 2020, but no one viewed them as better than the 1990's generation.

 

Maybe I was harsh about Italy-2010s, but I still have the impression, those two Euros were outlier in performances, considering its regular level over the last decade.

 

Yeah nobody is constantly good, there is some periods in history where you're gonna be bad or just unlucky, not even Brazil is and they're the most successful country.
About the original post, not yet, if Argentina can win another WC and Italy keep this low performance (low for Italy standards), then yes.

 

In the last 50 years, Argentina has gone to 5 World Cup Finals, winning 3.

Only team to have more finals and finals wins are the West Germans/Germany. Going to 6, winning 4.

France has gone to 4 finals, winning 2.
Italy has gone to 3 finals, winning 2.
Brasíl has gone to 3 finals, winning 2.

 

Actually in the last 50 years, Germany and Argentina have the same record. Both have won 3 world cups, but Germany has reached one more final (6 vs 5).

 

You’re right. For some reason, I counted that the Germans had won 4 in that time span.


So, then, Argentina are tied with most World Cup victories.