Handball question[R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by ArsenalTexan3, Nov 17, 2004.

  1. ArsenalTexan3

    ArsenalTexan3 Member

    Arsenal
    Sep 24, 2002
    Jakarta
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Ok the R is due to the game being USA Vs Jamiaca.

    In about the 75th minute or so, a Jamaican player was passing the ball to one of his teammates and it was a high pass. Oguchi Onyewu(already had 1 yellow card in the game) was in the area and it looked like he was raising his hand up to say he was the last defender(a Jamiacan player was by him already). However the ball hit his hand and the ref gave him his second yellow for hand ball.

    To me it was a bad call, but then looking at the replays it was 50/50 at best.
     
  2. HoldenMan

    HoldenMan New Member

    Jun 18, 2004
    NSW, Australia
    Why was it a bad call?

    I haven't seen it, but from your description it sounds like a good call.

    If he's stupid enough to stick his arm up in the path of the ball to appeal for offside that that's his own fault. I don't know where players got this idea that raising their arm will give them an offside call, but that can not be used as an excuse for handball. He raised his arm, the handball was deliberate. Furthermore, if the ball was going past him to an attacker who would've had a break but it hit his hand, then that's a tactical foul - yellow card.

    Unless the player the ball was headed for was offside and it was definitely going to him (in which case offside call would be correct)
     
  3. nylaw5

    nylaw5 Member

    Jan 24, 2002
    West Coast
    I saw the game and the play....

    I believed it to be a handball worthy of a direct free kick. However it was not enough for a caution, let alone a second caution and subsequent red card. In no way did he try to move his arm into the flight of the ball, or conceal his actions (two common "tells" for a delibrate handball). However his arm was not in a natural playing position, and it happened on an attack.

    Other than that, I think Navarro did a real nice job of handling the match.
     
  4. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw the play. This is a clear example of handling being the most abused call in all of soccer. A foul should only be called if in the opinion of the referee a player deliberately handled the ball. So many referees AT ALL LEVELS have been making the easy and safe call that it is almost as though the law has changed to

    " a referee shall award a free kick if the ball comes in contact with any part of a players arm from the area just below the shoulder to the end of the fingertips"​

    From what I saw last night, the US player was moving more or less laterally and came to a relatively quick stop. Jump up off your chair now and give that a try, laterally stepping to your right, then make a quick stop and see how your left arm sways away from your body. It is indeed a natual position. No whistle, no "play on", no call, no nothing.

    The same type of thing happened in the MLS semi final match between New England and DC United when a New England player struck a ball in close proximity to a DC player hitting his hand in the PA. In fact, this was the 2nd time it had happened within a couple of minutes. For the first one, the referee made no call to the dismay of the Revolution. On the 2nd one, which was even more clear that it was not deliberate, he called handling. Why? Because the players expect the call. And WHY do the players expect the call? Because as a group, we screw it up more than 95% of the time!

    BTW...to all my Massachusetts referee freinds, things are going well for me here in Virginia. Hope to hear from some of you via PM

    Scott
     
  5. shawn12011

    shawn12011 Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Reisterstown, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this also not the same as what happened in MLS Cup on Eskandarian's second goal. He lept into the air to block a clearing pass? His arm went up to where his elbow was in his upper chest and his hand was in front of his face. The struck ball hit his arm and flew in the opposite direction into his path. He then controled it and went in on goal and scored. No handball was called despite the protests of the KC bench and the talking heads in the booth. One of which was Eric Wynalda, a former player. Is this not the same as a player protecting his "private area" while standing in a wall on a free kick? A ball struck into a wall players arm/hand is not called because there is no intent. The handball call on Kovalenko later in the match was completly correct and he intended to stop the ball from entering his goal. Clear as day. Eskandarian was just protecting himself when he knew he was going to be struck by the ball.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, I'm absolutely shocked that the referees here--those that have posted thus far, at least--don't agree with this call.

    Onyewu is realized he's beat and, while he makes a desperate attempt to intercept the through-ball with his head, he also blatantly throws his arm up in the air and knocks it down with an open palm. Handling doesn't get much more deliberate. And, for the talk of "natural" and "unnatural" position: of course that matters, but I think people often go to far too great of lengths to try to prove or disprove it. The simple fact is that a professional at that level knows exactly what he's doing when his hand is in that position (and I would personally argue that, in this case, Onyewu put his hand in that position). You can lunge for a ball with your hands at your side--exactly where you're taught, as a defender, to put them.

    Further, the yellow card is absolutely warranted, even if it's a second. There is, as the other thread points out, much confusion about when to card for handling. To put it as simply as possible, when a goal or obvious goal-scoring opportunity is stopped, it's a red card. If a player tries to score a goal with his hand or stops an obvious attacking opportunity with his hand (such is the case here) then it's a yellow card. All other deliberate handling is a simple foul and non-deliberate handling is not a foul.

    While we're at it, though some have been better lately, Stone and yes, even Balboa, showed their ignorance of some of the laws last night. The greatest example was a case of reverse homerism; after a Jamaican player was cautioned for a "soft" foul on Johnson, Stone demonstrated his knowledge by citing the possibilty of "persistent infringment" being the call but then totally undercut his credibility by saying that it couldn't be, because it "wasn't the same player that was fouling him". Well, as the referees here should know and hopefully some of the public does as well, referees can give a caution to a player if a team directs a pattern of fouls against a particular opponent. In other words, if a team tactic is to rotate coverage on a star player so you can foul him repeatedly, the referee can pick any particular foul and issue a yellow card. That's exactly what Navarro did; Johnson had been fouled three times in the back in the previous 5-6 minutes or so. It shouldn't--and didn't--matter that the third foul was probably the weakest. Navarro correctly recognized what the Jamaicans were doing (fouling Johnson with his back to goal) and attempted to put a stop to it.

    Overall, I think Navarro did an above average job but, at times it appears that he rushes things. I like his officiating, but I don't know if he'll be able to make it to the World Cup. He'll certainly have the opportunity, though, because he and his crew will get a lot of games in the Hex since Canada is eliminated.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. To me, that was a completely UNcontroversial call. Well done by the CR.
     
  8. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    I'm with MassRef on this one too.
     
  9. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    It was much clearer than the Frings situation. Frings had an arm extended from his side but the hand was at most waist high and the arm position looked pretty natural. This .. forget it. Gooch sees dangerous situation, puts arm out, directs hand toward ball when ball is hit, hand is about head height. C'mon, if this isn't called then don't even bother with the rule.

    With Frings, I can understand (although not fully accept) the opposing argument.
     
  10. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Me as well. I think Navarro did a good job.

    Anyone else here think ESPN's commentators suck when it comes to referees? I mean, after an entire season of Eric Wynalda and the "Oh poor forwards getting the offsides calls" and now this, makes me wonder why I don't see if I can get these games online.

    Jarrod
     
  11. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    I loathe, I repeat loathe Eric Wynalda's stupid and ignorant comments regarding the LOTG. He is a complete and total idiot who perpretrates myths and his own idiosyncratic view of how things should be. Please keep quiet Eric. Keep your comments to the game and not the laws, their interpretation or application. You misinform so many with erroneous information.
     
  12. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    I'd like to get my hands on a replay of the handling call. I only saw the live action shot while leaving an indoor soccer complex. What I saw at first (only) look was the player make a stop and try to stop quickly and (as MassRef stated) make a desperate try at heading. Perhaps the play wasn't as bang-bang as I first thought.

    BTW, based on all accounts I heard, and the breif glimpses I saw of the match, he did a good job.

    BUT....

    Is there anybody that would disagree that handling is one of the Iif not the ) most miscalled infraction in our sport. If not, what is?

    Scott
     
  13. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Onyewu's hand was at least as high as his head. Even if he was trying to change direction, that's awfully high in the air, I'd have to think he could exercise a little more control over it than that.

    As quickly as the ball was played, I'm not sure he had time to move his hand to the ball, but there's little question in my mind that his hand wasn't in a place it should have been -- and I'm solidly in the camp that the Frings call in Korea was correct.
     
  14. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    Honestly, I'm not sure it is more Stoner's fault then Wynaldas. Everytime I see a match where JP or someone other then Stone is doing play-by-play, Eric seems to have less to say about the refereeing. I think Stone brings up more "I can't believe that wasn't called..blah blah blah" to which Eric has to attempt to explain why (and he is usually wrong). I think if Stone kept his mouth shut about the ref's, we'd get less complaining overall from the booth. I didn't watch the match live, so I don't know who did the PbP...if it wasn't Stone and Waldo still was annoying about the refereeing....just ignore the previous part of my post :).
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    No, it's offside in a landslide.

    I'd put PI in 2nd place, as well.
     
  16. Chubbywubby

    Chubbywubby Member

    Apr 11, 2004
    Denver, CO
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    I'd say, at least in youth games, that handling is the most overcalled (called when it shouldn't be) and PI the most undercalled (not called when it should be).
     
  17. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was a no-brainer call. It was absolutely correct.

    His hand was up at head level, and he knocked the ball down that was destined for a very dangerous attacking position. It has to be called. JohnR said it best... if you don't call that one, you might as well eliminate the rule.
     
  18. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I got a look at a replay guys. Good call and based on the potential of the attack, good card.

    Sorry for jumping to my conclusion too quickly without relooking at the play.

    Poor calling of handling is my biggest referee pet peeve (right up there with referees who say 'offsides'). I think it is something that can be worked on at all levels to make the game better.



    Scott
     
  19. SoccerMan94043

    SoccerMan94043 Member+

    May 29, 2003
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It really looked to me like Gooch was putting up his hand to signal offside... so now you have both miscalled rules in one play ;) It really looked like his hand was going up before he could have know where the pass was headed.

    If just to get defenders to stop "helping" the ref crew with offside, I think it's a good card.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, but I've never seen a player throw his hand up to signal offside before the ball is played AND also lunge in desperation with his head (towards his raised hand) to intercept that pass to a player who he is claiming is offside.
     
  21. tog

    tog Member

    Oct 25, 2000
    Seattle
    Re: Handball question[R] Referee's rant!

    The problem is this: at least most players/coaches understand the offside rule. They just want it called differently.

    With handling, however, almost nobody but referees actually understands the rule. What this causes is a problem where if you call the rule as it is in the Laws, the players/coaches think you're an idiot because you keep "missing" hand balls. Then what happens is that you lose the confidence of the players/coaches. Inexperienced refs allow this to influence their calls, and thereby reinforce the misunderstanding of the rule, which makes it harder on all of us.

    This causes me no end of annoyance, but I'm not sure what to do to fix it other than educate the players and coaches better (good luck).
     
  22. tmaker

    tmaker Member

    Nov 24, 2003
    Seattle
    I'm not even so sure that coaches really understand the offside rule. I just got back from a GU15 game where a ball was passed to a forward clearly five yards ahead of the play, but on the opposite side of the field from the ball. Unfortunately AR2 waited in that "delayed offside" mode that bugs me to no end, until the ball was almost at the player's feet before raising the flag. The coach goes ballistic and says, "C'mon, she's totally on the other side of the field." I had to wonder to myself, WTH does that have to do with anything? Luckily I just went back to my quadrant and avoided laughing.

    My recent survey of games I've videotaped (professional cameraman that I am, I have quite a few) shows that handling is easily the most overworked call in the youth game. The only conversation I ever had with a FIFA/MLS referee discussed this same thing and he said that the ratio he'd seen was easily 2 to 1 of handball that was called over handball that should have been. Offside, meanwhile, was actually correct about 80% of the time. It's not even close.

    Way too many referees will blow for an offensive handball in the box, for instance, when the ball goes plainly to hand, because (I've heard at least 7 referees say this) it gave the offense an advantage. Well, tough: advantage or not, it's not deliberate. No deliberate, no handball. Simple. Or at least it should be.

    PI is virtually *never* called in youth games. My experience is that young referees don't even bother to keep a tally of such things. I've had to tell young refs, "Man, they've fouled that forward seven times this half already. Break out the cards." The usual response is something like, "Well, none of them have been bad enough to give a card for." :rolleyes:
     
  23. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Why do you hate the delayed offside so much? ;) Sorry, inside joke from another board, but I usually wait (as I believe I am suppose to), until the player is involved in the play .
     
  24. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, there's delayed and then there's delayed. I had an AR once who waited until the player actually touched the ball before flagging any offside. This was right after FIFA's playing=touching "clarification". Caused us no end of grief the first half... ball through to an obviously offside player who goes tearing off after it, and the players, fans and myself are all waiting for the flag... and waiting... and waiting ("Come on, ref! Offside!"). Five seconds later the attacker reaches the ball, and then the flag goes up. Oy. The forward is angry 'cause they just sprinted 40 yards for no reason, the defenders are annoyed, the fans are upset, and now my feet are firmly planted in a hole I didn't even dig.

    But better a bit delayed and right than an incorrect snap decision.
     
  25. whitehound

    whitehound New Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    O'fallon Il
    I didnt see the play but you add a bit of a twist that helps me swallow this. We ALL know that defenders ALWAYS raise thier hand to appeal for offside and whether or not we like it we have to decide if hand was in a playing position or if the contact was deliberate. sounds like the reff felt it was deliberately designed to stop attacking play.
     

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