Hand Ball while standing in a wall?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by dncm, Jan 25, 2008.

  1. dncm

    dncm Member+

    Apr 22, 2003
    Boston
    I searched the forum but didn't see it specifically - if needed, mods please merge.

    What is the Law in regards to players in a wall defending a free kick when:

    1. For Males: covering the jewels and the ball strikes the hand.

    2. For Females: that cross their hands/arm across their chest and the ball hits their hand/arm.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    No "law" per se, but in general, as long as you keep it there and don't "play" the ball with the arms after it hits them, then you are good.
     
  3. Tarheel Ref

    Tarheel Ref New Member

    May 3, 2007
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Ref Flunkie has said it well...another general theory (again not written into the LOTG but a good standard nonetheless) is as follows:

    Hand/arm plays ball = handball
    Ball plays or strikes hand/arm = play on
     
  4. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    Tarheel Ref's quote is OK for a starting point and works for players in a wall protecting themselves but if the hand/arm is not in a natural position it does not apply. Consider a wall with everybody holding their arms straight to make the wall higher. If the ball now strikes a stationary hand, it is a handling offense, despite the "ball to hand" concept.
     
  5. Tarheel Ref

    Tarheel Ref New Member

    May 3, 2007
    Chapel Hill, NC
    True and a scenario I didn't really picture nor have I ever seen, but...I happily stand corrected.
     
  6. constructor

    constructor Member

    Dec 21, 2007
    Out in the sticks
    Remember Law 18 when making a handling determination in a wall and the hand2ball, ball2hand thing is a good starting point, but by no means the only criteria.

    If I see the player protecting "sensitive" parts, but doesn't move the arm/hand, play on. If that arm/hand moves a bit to redirect the rebound, DFK. Any way you cut this, somebody will want a DFK when they see the ball rebound off an arm and will be very unhappy when you let play continue.
     
  7. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Lets also remember, "sensitive" parts can include the face depending on the skill/age level.
     
  8. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Law 18. Common Sense. ;)
     
  9. DWickham

    DWickham Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    San Diego
    The foul under law 12 is "deliberate handling" of the ball. Even moving the arm instinctively when faced by a fast approaching ball to protect sensitive areas is recognized as "not deliberate." See USSF Advice To Referees, section 12.9 (high school interpretation differs.)

    The ball to hand vs hand to ball approach works only to a point. A defender in a wall can protect a larger area of the goal by placing an arm in an unnatural playing position and then leaving the arm there for the ball to hit it. If the defender has enough time to withdraw the arm to avoid contact, but chooses not to do so to block the ball, this may be judged as deliberate handling the ball even though ball hit arm.
     
  10. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Ok, weird question then.

    Can a player place his hands in front of his teammate's private's during the taking of a free kick to protect his buddy? Not that I have ever seen it, but just wondering if it has ever happened.
     
  11. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps in rules modified for IGLFA tournaments.
     
  12. DWickham

    DWickham Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    San Diego
    NSA's answer is clever (if the question wasn't serious).

    The referee has to decide whether the action was instinctive (the better term is probably reflexive) or the result of deliberation. If the player deliberately handles the ball, it is a foul even if the player's motives were "good" rather than tactical (e.g., player caught the ball because an opponent was injured).
     
  13. gmsubzero

    gmsubzero New Member

    Jan 29, 2007
    Baltimore
    No matter what situation I always use this. In my opinion (In the opinion of the referee) does the player intentional move his arm into a position to play the ball or did he try to avoid the contact? With the arms up in the wall, in my opinion they're intentionally putting there arms up in hopes of stopping the ball.

    Also it probably doesn't help things and it doesn't happen very often but does the player intentionally try and play the ball into the players arm? Like for example. A wall is set up just inside the penalty area. The referee signals for the play to commence. A player on the end of the wall is using his arm to try and get one of his players to come over and join the wall. While this is happening the player taking the kick notices this and tries and succeeds in nailing the arm with the ball. The players arm was in an unnatural position in terms of play but he didn't intentionally play the ball? What would you call?
     
  14. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    This is not a situation where the arm/hand is out as a possible distraction or blocker, it sounds like a "natural" movement in the context of the circumstances at hand.

    So,

    if he sees the ball coming and could have but does not move his arm = handling.

    If he does not see the ball or could not move his arm in time = no handling.

    With due regard for the level of play, etc.
     
  15. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    DC
    The Advice is pretty clear on this:

    12.9 DELIBERATE HANDLING...Moving hands or arms instinctively to protect the body when suddenly faced with a fast approaching ball does not constitute deliberate contact unless there is subsequent action to direct the ball once contact is made. Likewise, placing hands or arms to protect the body at a free kick or similar restart is not likely to produce an infringement unless there is subsequent action to direct or control the ball. (emphasis added)

    Always good to have the Advice handy; it actually covers a lot of situations that people wonder about.
     
  16. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    Let's not forget the flip side of the advice. Placing the hands over a body part and then running into the ball IS handling, even if the hand is not moved. My description for this is that you can protect yourself or attack the ball but not both at once.
     
  17. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    DISAGREE! Your hands have to be somewhere! I can't see running towards an attacker with your hands behind your back. I remember a ball into my nuts when applying pressure to attacker; I wished I had been protecting myself that day.
     
  18. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see three different issues here:

    1) The hand hit the ball and it was a foul yet deemed trivial or trifiling. therefore no advantage/play on. It was a foul, just not one I was going to call.

    2) The ball hit the hand and it was no foul. Again no advantage/play on.

    3)The hand the ball and it was a foul. Advantage/play on or call the foul.


    I find that many times the wall issue fits into number 1, the hand wasn't in a natural playing position, the hand didn't REALLY play the ball, so the offense was trifiling.


    ANR
     
  19. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Where you tend to see this type of thing is in lower-level girls' matches (and sometimes low-level older novice womens') where they prepare to receive a high ball by "protecting" their chest with their arms, then proceed to trap said ball with their arms tight against the body.

    Unfortunately, I all too often see refs let this go. Sorry, it's handling. Somebody just needs to teach the poor players how to do a proper chest trap--it can be done by females too!
     
  20. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Agreed. Soccer involves playing the ball with all parts of the body. The use of the hands/arms is not gender-specific.

    Protecting oneself a) in the wall b) reflexively/defensively is acceptable. Using the arms otherwise, e.g. for a chest trap when the protective action is not reflexive/defensive, but rather deliberate/proactive, is handling.
     

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