Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Interestingly enough, if you asked any sane German or Japanese person today if things are better now BECAUSE their respective nation lost that war (which their respective nations started), I'm pretty sure they will be glad that their nation lost that war.

    Which is NOT to say that that should be Israel's prime objective, because trying to win the peace 80 years down the road presupposes that the future is predictable and can be controlled for a variety of variables.
     
  2. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If every member of Hamas were to be dusted by a Thanos-type snap tomorrow, you'd probably have some extended period of peace. Eventually, though, some other terrorist organization would fill the void. Unless there was some way to occupy all of Gaza and restructure the society to fix the underlying issues, the problem isn't going away. But, I don't see the Israelis taking on that task, so it would need to be some third party.
     
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  3. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Speaking for myself only, I expected there to be at least tens of thousands of casualties because that's how many estimated combatants for Hamas. I expected those combatants to be counted among the civilians and I also expected there to be combatants that were minors. The numbers alone did not surprise me. Those complications do not go away and they do not get easier ever. It is a factor of this war.

    That doesn't mean that IDF gets a free ride. They must at least attempt good faith measures of proportional response. Now that I know that IDF estimates that very few of the casualties were combatants and that whistle-blowers are sounding out about how the targets were selected I now have to pivot and ask questions and accountability of IDF leadership.

    I still think that Hamas needs to be fully disabled. However, IDF leadership has proven itself to be a bad actor. I don't think that the IDF rank and file are thoroughly corrupted or the Israeli society in general given that this was reported from Israeli sources and IDF members in a very early phase of the war.
     
  4. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know if removing Hamas leadership and combatants is even really possible. The leader of Hamas is in exile and from the accounts of 10/1 some of the attackers were in jeans and flip-flops, taking pictures of burned bodies and calling back to their parents to gleefully relay how many people they had killed.

    So who are the actual combatants? How do you overcome that kind of hatred?
     
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  5. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The strategic goal of the IDF is to protect their people from the horrors of another 10/7.

    I have no idea how that can be achieved and neither do you.
     
  6. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    At this point, I don't see how Israel can proceed with this war while Bibi is in charge. He has been absolute crap and been the primary factor for getting thousands of Israelis and Palestinians killed.

    At the same time, the region cannot survive an intact Hamas with this level of control over two millions.

    Talk about a flustercluck.
     
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  7. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    This is the same argument that the allies insistence on punishment of Germany in the treaty of Versailles, particularly reparations, after the first world war played no part in creating the conditions for the second world war.

    That argument is generally accepted as being false by most historians...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II

    If the argument is that you need to blockade and siege people as otherwise, they might attack you you're pretty much guaranteeing a self fulfilling prophesy. if you also double-up on that thinking with the idea you need to steal someone's land to provide a 'buffer zone', again, you might just end up being proved right.

    I'm not sure that's a particularly intelligent way of thinking about it though.
     
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  8. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. As Mao said, "The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea." Hamas knows it'll get slaughtered in a stand up fight with the IDF, so its fighters are going to melt into the civilian population as much as possible and engage in asymetrical warfare.

    The question that needs to be asked is, what is the endgame for Hamas here? I haven't seen anyone talk about that.
     
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  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Haven't I already answered that question?
     
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  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they take glee in killing, a logical mind would conclude that Israel isn’t making them be terrorists because terrorist take glee in killing.
     
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  11. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You’re on the right track but don’t quite get there. Absent from this rhetorical question is that how Hamas fights will affect that number. Israel can’t control how Hamas fights, they can only control themselves. So I think it’s a useless hypothetical, because it’s about a situation that doesn’t exist and can’t exist.

    What I expect of Israel is to have reasonable military goals, which to me means getting Hamas out of power. Not removal. They should attempt to do this with the least amount of harm to civilians possible, but obviously, and ultimately, Hamas and Gazans have a hell of a lot more say so than the IDF on that.

    Return volley: why doesn’t Hamas come out of the tunnels and fight the IDF directly? I have my answer, and it’s probably the same as yours. But the fact that I’m bringing up what is more or less a new question, after dozens of posts asking why the IDF is fighting the way it is, is telling.
     
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  12. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    If it's true that IDF and Israel government knew about Hamas plans a year in advance and they disregarded it as impossible or highly unlikeable, then lots of heads must roll. I understand military intelligences often decide what's possible and what's not, but given who we are talking about (Hamas and Israel), I can't believe it was so easily dismissed. It's beyond me to understand that Israel knew it COULD happen, but made little attempts to prepare. And it starts with Bibi and heads of military intelligence. They all must be at the minimum relieved of duty and possibly jailed.
     
  13. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    The endgame for Hamas is their dream of dragging Israel into a regional conflict.
     
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  14. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    What does that have to do with the question if there is an unacceptable casualty limit for this operation?
     
  15. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    The IDF is the military of a democracy, Hamas is a terrorist group. If they are judged by different standards it is perhaps because they should be?
     
  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This keeps getting lost in the WWII analogy as well.

    It was the allies that said liquidation of civilian populations was not legitimate
     
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  17. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Your peeps let you down, bruh

    How do we know it's true? This:

    The Israeli military declined to comment on the report, saying it was “currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organization Hamas.”

    “Questions of this kind will be looked into in a later stage,” it said.

    The document was seen by many Israeli military and intelligence officials, the report said, though it was unclear if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or other top leaders had seen it.

    https://apnews.com/article/new-york-times-hamas-attack-israel-gaza-6088cad78f5e4153d671fe9b5b819308
     
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  18. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You ask questions that have no answer.

    I am sure the IDF would prefer not to kill innocents but Hamas makes that impossible.

    You need to ask your question to Hamas leadership.
     
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  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok, but…why doesn’t Hamas come out of the tunnels? You didn’t answer that.
     
  20. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    You have no way of knowing that and a good number of Likudniks are quite happy to thin the herd as much as the world will stomach.
     
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  21. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Otherwise know as a double standard.
     
  22. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    If the two things you are judging are a democratic nation's military and a terrorist group, then yes, different standards apply. The notion that this is at all controversial is kind of absurd.
     
  23. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are right, I have no way of proving that opinion.

    It is interesting that "the world" wouldn't be able to stomach the Israeli's defending themselves yet sits in silence in other conflicts that are equal to or worse.
     
  24. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    So Bibi played y'all and hundreds of people died. I know that's a harsh reality and Hamas is still a terrorist group. But it is what it is.

    We know the whole "Israel has one of the best intelligence services in the world" mantra did not square with them missing how fighters from a small strip of land that is under constant surveillance pulled off such a deadly attack. Flying in on freakin hang gliders.
     
  25. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Google asymmetrical warfare, SD
     
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