Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

1 may 2 Hamas terrorists per 100 dead is definitely a good plan.

Again, read the Ganz article, enlighten yourself of how revenge with no further plan is hurting Israel in the present and long term.

 

Oh, I’m pretty confident that’s not “the” alternative. Classic strawman argument.

 

I don’t understand this.

 

Unwittingly you've identified the problem. The Israelis have turned what should be a largely urban environment into a war zone by their ludicrously inappropriate use of heavy weapons.

Either they should have maintained large numbers of troops in Gaza to exercise the control they wanted OR they should have withdrawn completely and not maintained a siege/blockade so it could function as an autonomous area.

 

Well, yeah. That was my point.

Sending troops in to try and grab the perpetrators, even with air support, at least makes it look like they're intention is to hit the targets they say they're after. What they're doing atm looks like an act of sheer lunacy.

 

Apart from the fact that's what's been happening, y'mean.

 

Just the Israelis, huh? The left hand is making all the noise when clapping, the right doesn't make any noise at all?

You've lost it dude.

 

Assuming it is an idea, maybe their 1988 charter will be a good place to see how the idea is articulated by, you know, those who adhere to it:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.​

​

Not Israel. Jews.

Articles seven and thirteen are especially entertaining.

 

Last night I found an Israeli article on some severe moral issues with Israeli bombing targets. Issues bad enough to be leaked by IDF members.

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

The biggest issue is in the methodology used to select for targets. If true, and it most likely is, this is grounds for war crimes.

 

Hamas has launched missiles into Gaza? I thought they were mainly trying to hit Israel but, hey, what do I know.

 

The Guardian is following up here

The last paragraph is striking:

Moyes, of Article 36, said that when relying on tools such as the Gospel, a commander “is handed a list of targets a computer has generated” and they “don’t necessarily know how the list has been created or have the ability to adequately interrogate and question the targeting recommendations”.

“There is a danger,” he added, “that as humans come to rely on these systems they become cogs in a mechanised process and lose the ability to consider the risk of civilian harm in a meaningful way.”​

 

???

You seem to have 'discovered' that hamas are a murderous terrorist group.

Er... OK!

 

Neither of those solutions would counter the glee Hamas takes in killing Jews.

 

I'm not sure hamas' level of 'glee' is a subject of great import for topic.

 

I didn't closely follow the back and forth over Corbyn between you and others, but let me tell ya, looking back at those exchanges in light of your posts here makes me evaluate them differently.

 

YOU JUST WROTE ON THIS THREAD THAT ISRAEL'S ACTIONS ARE CREATING TERRORISTS! DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT YOU WRITE?????

 

So we have some contributors to this topic suggest that fighting Hamas is complicated in an area where they are hiding among the civilian population and thus suggesting that civilian casualties are to be expected.

If we accept this as an excuse for the huge death toll among the Gaza citizenry, does this notion have any limits? Like would you all still feel the same if the death toll moves past 100000? That might seem an absurd amount, unless you remember we are already at 15000 and the IDF hasn't indicated they are anywhere close to obliterating Hamas' operational capabilities. If anything the estimates of the number of Hamas combatants killed suggests they have only just begun.
Prior to the ceasefire their own estimates were 1000-2000 of a suggested number of Hamas members that was around 30000. So if we take even the optimistic estimate of 2000, that's still only 1/15th. Assuming the eradication of the rest of Hamas has as much "collateral damage", 100000 dead civilians might soon be an optimistic instead of an absurd estimate.

 

I disagree.

How do you counter an enemy that does the inhumane, personal acts of 10/7?

I see plenty of accusations toward the Israeli response and I don't disagree, but in the weeks I have been following this thread I haven't seen anything resembling an answer to my question.

 

Are you blaming the IDF exclusively for those deaths?

 

What's that got to do with his point about their enjoyment of killing? WTF are you on about?

 

I know people on here don't like talking about the WWII example. But, we didn't just defeat the militaries and take out the leadership of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan at the end of the war. We tore down their entire governmental and ideological systems, and rebuilt them into functional liberal democracies, who no longer had an interest in waging war against their neighbors.

Is that possible in Gaza? I don't know. But, so long as Gazan society is so warped by the ideology of Hamas, there's never going to be a permanent peace between Gaza and Israel. Just killing or bringing to justice the perpetrators of October 7 won't be enough.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the point of that question is. My question was if there was a limit to the degree of civilian death in Gaza that could be justified by the strategic goals of the currently ongoing operations.

Would the IDF be conducting these operations if not for the Hamas attack on 07/10? Obviously not. So the answer to your question is self-evident.
Less clear is if the people using that attack as justification for the high death toll in Gaza believe there is a limit to that devastation or if finishing the operation until its pre-set goals are met is all that matters.
I'm beginning to suspect that for an awful lot of people it's the latter. Which means we should ready ourselves for some incredibly grim months.

Has anyone even asked the question what the post-operational status quo is supposed to look like if the IDF operations kill say 5-10% of the pre-07/10 Gaza population?
Because I haven't heard a reasonable "what then" type statement from anyone.
Outside of some nutjobs (apparently) that suggest 2 million Gazans emigrate to Europe.

 

So wait, you are telling me that if they take out the entire Hamas leadership and all of its combatants, that still would not be enough? So what would be?

 

As someone said upthread, large parts of Gaza may end up being uninhabitable after this conflict. Is it possible Israel's endgame here is to present the world with the choice of letting the Gazans die in a post-apocalyptic hellscape, or allow them to become refugees wherever might take them?

The longer this continues, the less viable it will be for a lot of Gazans to return to what used to be their homes.