Hamas Attacks, Israel Responds

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Oct 7, 2023.

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  1. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    The Dems are a center-right party within our context. Probably you could fit 90% of their representatives within VLD and CD&V over here (both center-right), with only the left-most wing of the party far left enough to be a socialist (Vooruit) within our context. And even then I'm guessing most of them would be thoroughly in the middle of the party ideologically.

    I think the huge difference is that the idea of a welfare state is 100% left-wing in the U.S. whereas in most of Western-Europe, the welfare state was built just as much by right of center parties as left-wing parties.
    Within the Belgian context, you could even argue that right of center CD&V (formerly CVP) can probably take more credit than even the socialists.
     
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  2. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    No. It's a fair question in the situation where people are being accused of antisemitism for simply saying they think that Israel's latest action has been an overreaction and that, more generally, the treatment of the Palestinians has been pretty appalling and against international laws.
     
  3. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I think it's pretty obvious the ceasefire was b/w Hamas and IDF.
     
  4. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yeah, that was my assumption as well.
     
  5. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    #6705 rslfanboy, Nov 30, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    I think you need to consider the poster he is responding to.
     
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  6. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not my thread. You know that, right? A mod started that thread.
     
  7. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    And also the fact that I'm not very smart. Consider all the facts!
     
  8. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    The core issue for me is that both outside and inside of this topic, there has been a conflating of any type of left-wing position or POV on this conflict and antisemitism.
    I obviously concede that some folks will have crossed that line, yet it would be interesting to define where that line is. It is purposely being kept vague (again not just in this topic but more broadly in terms of this messaging).
    To give just one example, I mentioned earlier that I would like to hear some actual examples of the social media posts that apparently cost some pro-Palestine college kids job offers.
    Was it posting problematic slogans, or straight-up bigoted statements or posting a Palestinian flag, or a statement expressing concern at the loss of life in Gaza, ...
    Instead it is usually described broadly and nebulously, where there would actually be a lot of value in some specificity.
     
  9. Yup, don't let us mention the why of it...
    1. [​IMG]https://www.theguardian.com › world › 2023 › nov › 29 › clashes-jenin-israel-major-incursion-west-bank
      Eight-year-old boy among four reported dead in Israeli raid on Jenin ...
      1 dag geledenJenin has long been a centre of Palestinian resistance to Israel, with a series of deadly confrontations since Hamas launched its attack from Gaza. Fourteen people were killed in fighting earlier...
     
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  10. So, what does that change the fact that the Democrats in positions are centre to right wing in Dutch views?
     
  11. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    Yes, I forgot, Hamas needs a reason to randomly murder innocent bystanders.
     
  12. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Formation will be interesting (LOL!), so it's not a given (yet) Wilders will ever be PM.
     
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  13. You and the moistje guy have no problem turning a blind eye to the continuality of murder perpetrated by the idf or even being apologists of it.
    This attack was on civilians, so in my eyes inexcusable, but that doesnot take away the reason given, you knew about, but left out.
     
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  14. The rape of the Westbank continues and no one raises a finger about it. Gimme shelter I posted not without a reason.
     
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  15. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    Need? No, but the IDF is giving plenty of reasons to pick up a gun and fight back.

    The US (and USSR before) experienced this during the Afghan and Iraq Wars (see, eg, ISIS, amongst other blowback issues).

    You'd think Israel would have learned a lesson there but here we are.
     
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  16. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    I think this thread does a fine job of pointing out any wrongdoings of IDF as is. I don't see why I need to do the same. Similar as how you didn't post the article I did, yet quickly pulled the Guardian piece as a reply to my post. Nevertheless, if you think the reason for this Hamas attack is b/c what happened in Jenin, you're being dishonest.
     
  17. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Rational people aren't thinking, "support of Palestine = antisemitic." Nor do people think it's synonymous. I've mentioned before that antisemitism is subtle when it comes to criticism of Israel, because that gives a cover when it's called out.

    The thing is many supporters of Palestine are terrible at rhetoric. Or optics. Showing up to Rosalynn Carter's funeral to protest, a First Lady who along with her husband were highly sympathetic to Palestine isn't a good look. The Oakland City Council criticizing a member for condemning Hamas only to be told by several people at the meeting that doing so is racist (Or supporting white supremacy). Like I said, terrible at rhetoric.

    I'll admit that they're a small contingent, but they are an incredibly vocal one. Thankfully, they're nowhere near getting power.
     
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  18. He also hasnot followed/kept track of what was posted about it in the election thread. Wilders, to gain support, had publicly stated his constitution violating party points would be put on ice to gain voters.
    The american baboon on the other hand is mentioned in here and in other threads to go further and further.
    Wilders problem is that an essential political party for a rightwing coalition has doubts about what that means and a huge part of that NSC party has principal objections to form a government with a party that has points in it's program attacking the constitution.
     
  19. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    As in when Israel puts its weapons down, they know peace?
     
  20. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    I'm far from a Mehdi Hasan superfan (definitely some problematic statements in his past) but MSNBC dropping his shows from Peacock and MSNBC at this time does not look great.
    Essentially depriving one of the few Muslim anchors his national platform is an unfortunate decision at best.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4335274-mehdi-hassan-canceled-msnbc/
     
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  21. Nope, it wasnot about that.
    You posted that attack with the remark about the cease fire, while they gave the Jenin massacre as the reason. If you mentioned the reason they gave with the comment "my ass", there wouldnot be a need to complete the story.
    We accept the reason they gave for the 7th october attack, to derail the coseying up with among others Saoudi Arabia.
    This attack comes fresh on the heels of the murders in Jenin and was attached to it by them.
    If you want to see them as nothing to do with each other, you're the one deluding himself, not me.
    I don't get what's dishonest about that post.
     
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  22. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    this thread itself has been a mini proof of it IMO

    how should we even think about this?
     
  23. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    RE: Left wing and Palestine.

    One of the issues I think people can't seem to grasp is that one's own side is incapable of bigotry. Or as being as unhinged as the hard right. Or the fact that the fringe left is just as problematic as the hard right. I've mentioned before but Dems have always been good at telling the fringe "too bad." and said fringe is incapable of organizing anything because they have the mentality of a toddler when told no.

    What all this has to do with Israel/Palestine is this: First, a majority of the pro-Palestine people aren't exactly good at rhetoric or optics. Publicly beefing with Bernie Sanders because he had the nerve to share the same view as Joe Biden on Israel, showing up to a former First Lady's Funeral (Who was incredibly sympathetic to Palestine!) to protest, the Oakland City Council meeting (Which is, yikes), doing things like tearing down posters of hostages, screaming "ISRAEL IS COLONIALISM!!!" (Without any understanding of the concept)

    I know some will go, "But what about Kanye or the hard right?!". Kanye's been irrelevant for years and has suffered consequences. The hard right's either facing consequences in their lives (Loss of jobs) or are getting trounced in elections (Moms For Liberty won what, less than ten elections?). Nobody likes hardliners on either side, and there's a reason a good chunk of them lose elections.

    Either way, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, people are incapable of realizing that there's problematic left wing types for Palestine just as they're are for right wingers and Israel.
     
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  24. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Show me how it is a fact, but not in this thread. Show it in the Dem Fail Thread where it belongs.
     
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