great article on MLS & Garber....

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by JRedknapp11, Aug 26, 2002.

  1. JRedknapp11

    JRedknapp11 Red Card

    Dec 5, 2001
  2. PZ

    PZ Member

    Apr 11, 1999
    Ipswich Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Snowden puts as much spin on his stuff as Garber. :p

    I'm thinking the reality is somewhere in between to two extremes.
  3. delo_pata

    delo_pata Member

    Jan 12, 2001
    Durham, NC
    What he said.

    So, pro sports organizations exaggerate their worth and importance. Now that is big news.
  4. Autogolazo

    Autogolazo BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 19, 2000
    Bombay Beach, CA
    No, this is someone so full of themselves as to use words like "denizens", "inerrant", "grandeur" and "vainglorious" while attempting to express an opinion about soccer.

    This is what 16-year-olds consider to be good writing--stuffed full of flashy adjectives and straining to impress.

    Mr. Snowden needs an editor....badly.
  5. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I'm thinking Garber's megolamonia might only be matched by Snowden's....and JRedKnapp11's.
  6. dawgpound2

    dawgpound2 Member

    Mar 3, 2001
    Los Angeles, CA
    Didn't think I'd see the "If you don't play in Europe, you can't be World Class" argument. Let me ask all of you, DID ANYFREAKINONE WATCH THE WORLD CUP???????

    Hey, Dick, Landon Donovan, and Clint Mathis, and Brian McBride, and DaMarcus Beasley all did their part to make some of those Euro studs look pretty average, on the World stage. If that ain't "World Class" then you personally can shove it.
  7. FootyMundo

    FootyMundo New Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Good to see you think so highly of yourself. Now tell someone who cares . . .

    As for Garber. It is his job to promote the league. Is anyone shocked that it doesn't add up 100%? This is hardly a revelation.

    There are some facts he can shove right down the throats of those who are oh so critical of his young league. 7 goals scored. 5 by MLS players. France scored 0 goals. Argentina scored 2. In short, I think we've now shown we can compete at a very high level. And for anyone to call the leadership of U.S. soccer poor is laughable. This sport is our nations 5th priority at best. And we just finished 8th in the world. Luck be damned. You make your own luck - good and bad. 15 years ago 2,000 people went to national team games. Today 35,000 show up to see the Honduras B Team. We lost 30 some straight to Mexico. Now we've taken 5 of 6 - all but one of them being played in a hostile environment. I'm not even going to address these talent gaps - because they are fading. Youth has been served. And from here on out we'll be competitive. Not always successful, but competitive. So if this is the ugly truth - so be it.
  8. What a negative article. That guy had some score to settle. What a tool.
  9. soccerdome

    soccerdome New Member

  10. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know...I thought he was more or less on the mark. I like MLS and support it, but is it really developing world class players? I think Donovan can play in Europe, but will be be a stand-out player? I don't think Beasley or Mathis will.

    One thing that US fans keep forgetting about WC 2002, is that what people noted/stood out most about the US team was how athletic it was. In most years this would be a backhanded compliment, but in this past WC, that was a strength of the "small" teams that advanced. They were good as units and they could run people into the ground. You might get by with that playing knockout football in 90 degree heat, but it's not a good measure of progress in technical quality-which is at a very different level in the top leagues in Europe. Which points to his basic fact: MLS is not devloping players who are going on to standout careers in Europe. His point that Garber-as well as many US fans-are hyping the influence of MLS is a fair one. Which is not to say that it doesn't matter-it clearly does and is important for soccer to develop in the US. But it's not a producer of world class talent.

    Of course to be fair, MLS has been very tough re: transfer fees, and the league is young. But 2006 will be a very interesting story, as this current European-based group is at the end of the road. I think we will get a much better picture of how good MLS is at devloping players who can play at the international level, never mind "world class" players.
  11. buffalo

    buffalo New Member

    Jul 12, 2002

    That guy is a tool. The article offered nothing but cry baby stuff. I think the guy writing it is either Mexican or British. Either way he is scared of the US future, and should be.
  12. Stevedm

    Stevedm Red Card

    Jan 19, 2000
    don't agree with this article at all. Rich is a cool guy but I don't agree with ya bud. Sorry!!!!
  13. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    fwiw, I don't think Snowden's a tool, and he usually writes pretty good stuff. Here I think he's taking a straw man - Garber, as PR spokesman for (hopefully) a growing league - and trying to reduce him to ashes. So Garber throws a few extreme statements around, so what? He's just riding the World Cup dog for as long as he can, I can't say I blame him.

    I don't get on the threads about the MFL v. MLS debates too often - win some, lose some, ON BOTH SIDES. Certainly, MLS has gained a lot of ground recently, the Wizards' recent performance notwitstanding.

    The stuff about day in day out stuff in Europe strikes me as hollow too. Whose to say? The MLS guys performed pretty well when it counted most and while we don't crank out "world class players" like the Brazilians do and never will, to say MLS is cranking out a few is hardly extremist talk IMHO.

    What was his last point. O yea, CONCACAF qualifying. Another straw man. You can mkae all sorts of argument about how we didn't care about the last game, and points needed, and who finished first or second or whatever, etc. and/or who the hell has qualified for the last 4 (admittedly one at home). Garber may have been blowin' his trumpet but heck, he's the MLS freaking Commisioner, what should he do, talk about all the negatives at the State of the Union/post-World Cup celebration?

    I just think Snowden's trying to pick a fight this week...
  14. soccerdome

    soccerdome New Member

    Everyone should.........
  15. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    A piece of trash, if you ask me. More of the "but until they’ve proven themselves on a weekly basis in a top European league, they simply cannot be called “world-class.”" same old Euro snob crap.

    I also take issue with the mindless comment, " Yanks got beaten at home by Honduras and finished behind both Costa Rica and Mexico in 2002 World Cup qualifying" We qualified second and had nothing to play for in the last WCQ match.
  16. JRedknapp11

    JRedknapp11 Red Card

    Dec 5, 2001
    I'm not trying to start another riot..... but you have to look at it from a few angles.

    The MLS players sure did stand out for us. One then has to ask why did they stand out ? What made our MLS players seem to acheive a higher caliber of play then those on France or Argentina, etc...

    To me it seems pretty cut and dry. While the MLS was only barely getting underway , the rest of the world had just ended their seasons. Look at all of the injuries that played a toll on some of the true world class players. From Zidane to Beckham to Figo ..they all were drained from a rigorous schedule. One of the fresher teams that the US went up against was Poland. Most of the Polish players were role players on their clubs and were fairly well rested. Sure they didn't leave from the qualifying group but they sure did hand the US a big time loss. The Korea match was great, but let's just be honest here.... USA was lucky to walk out a winner...bottom line is US won, but damn lucky. Brad made a once in a lifetime save and not to be forgotten is Pope clearing the rebound off the line.If anyone of those two players had missed those chances, this whole discussion wouldn't even be going on.

    To call the players you mentioned above.... Mathis, McBride, DMB, and Donovan world class... is well insulting to those players whom truly are world class.

    Brian McBride could come the closest since his career has actually seen him play on the world stage. He spent a season and half with Wolfsburg but only managed two goals in that time. He was also loaned out to bottom dwellers Preston North End where he managed to grab one whole goal. Injuries cut his loan short....but his arrival to PNE was hardly ground shaking. His national team duty has seen him score 25 goals....most of them comming in the lowly Concacaf matches..... so from what I am seeing, I don't think he qualifies as World Class.

    Landon is as of now built apron pure hype. His time in Germany has seen him gain zero in goals and playing time. He's played here in the MLS for only two years which is obviously not long enough to get called World Class....even if he did manage to grab the MLS's only a ten team league..12 when he won...Donovan is a marketing ploy at best...from his teeny boppers that cheer for him to his stupid sports bra celebration....still nothing ground breaking to gain World class status.

    DMB... nothing to say about him really....he's young and quick with tons of potential...then again you can find 50 other players in any league across the world that has the title of young, quick and filled with potential. Again..nothing to earn world class status.

    Then there is Clint. Love him for being a Metro but again what has he done to gain world class status ? One goal in the world cup doesn't put you there... his on slaught against the MLS last year was great but one year surely doesn't bring you to world class status. Especially when the league is only 6 years old and 12 teams deep (last year).

    All of these guys are good players. There's nothing wrong with being a good or even a great player...but to list them as world class is a joke. None of them have even come close to be called the world's best. Best in Concacaf...sure , the argument could be in the world, not a chance.

    I am not knocking the MLS , I love it. I support it and hope it stays for ever. Unfortuntly though there isn't one single player that could be called world class that is playing in the MLS. We have had a bunch of old world class players but none have ever been in their prime.

    Also, I'm not saying that you have to play in Europe to gain a world class status but you need to play consistant and always be at the top of your game. Joe Max plays in Europe and he's not world class...same go's for Keller and Reyna. Reyna is a great midfielder but not complete enough to be called world class. In order to be world class you have to be one of THE best in the world at that position.

    If your going to use the exscuse of claiming a few goals against a country outside of the concacaf region is worthy of being world class...then it looks like Jovan Kirovski is world class.
  17. NotAbbott

    NotAbbott Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    My Own Little World

    Okay, sorry about that, but I know Rich. This is the funniest thing I've seen in weeks. In fact, I was going to comment that, for the true effect, you have to read it with a serious Arkansas redneck drawl. Even the big words.

  18. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I feel like I don't need to read the article now. ;)

    Oh, mark me down as someone who doesn't necessarily think MLS has to develop players who go on to have successful careers in Europe for me to like MLS. Or to feel like it's doing its job. I realize there's the whole validation thing and the "what the world thinks of us" thing and the "point to that guy with pride" thing, but I'd be pretty happy if Mathis, DMB, McHead and Landon grow old over here.

    Okay, just read the article anyway, and my thoughts are these:

    1) Boy, it's hard to tell when someone goes into a piece with an agenda, isn't it?

    2) Didn't this bright boy write some other crap lately that we all took issue with?

    3) Is this guy English? Do I have to go off on another Englishman now? Hell, I don't know if I could handle another 29,000 hits in a day on my site. :)

    4) This guy has a lot of anger, doesn't he? He's got more issues than National Geographic, it seems to me.

    5) "So…is Richard Snowden a genius? A moron? A jackass? All of the above?" No, but two out of three ain't bad.

    Clip and save, that's all. If you fancy yourself a columnist, opinion and vitriol are your stock in trade. If you fancy yourself a journalist, they're not. All the Richard Snowdens of the world don't really matter, now do they? The guy's attempts to make himself seem so erudite that we mere mortals shouldn't even attempt to question what he's saying are just sad, really.

    And I don't even really have issues with his basic premise---that MLS isn't a "great" league. Obviously some facts speak for themselves. What I really take issue with is the guy's anger and pretentiousness.
  19. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002

    Unbelievable that you buy this excuse. The losers of the WC had to come up with something and amazingly some people bought it. IT really boggles the mind. Somehow the long season didn't bother Brazil or Germany. Nor did it bother our Euro based players like Sanneh or Reyna.

    Argentina played decently, but was in an impossible group. France was overrated and Zidane was injured.

    Such as Mathis.

    Ah, your true colors shine through.

  20. JRedknapp11

    JRedknapp11 Red Card

    Dec 5, 2001
    How is players being knackered from a long European schedule just an exscuse ? It's a simple fact...look at the teams that partook in the tournament and you'll find at least 2 guys on each squad that was less then 100% due to being over worked.

    France overrated ? Previous world cup winner... Euro Cup winners and Con Fed Cup champions...sure that's over rated allright.

    Reyna was bothered by an injury from the season that just ended. That's why he didn't play in all of the matches.

    Germany did well because they played a heavy slow game...relying on their keeper who carried them to the finals....something the US knows thanks to Friedel.

    Brazil had a core group of players who were pretty well rested and are very much used to the travel demans of football with playing in Europe and then traveling back to Brazil for qualifiers. Look at their squad...their bench could of beaten most countries.

    Snowdens article was to bring the US soccer fan back down to earth .... to a little place we call reality. MLS and US soccer has made some great improvements but it's no way as solid as most people are thinking. Then you have people on these boards calling 2 million dollar offers for McBride and DMB insulting. These guys are comming from a soft 10 ten team league where the play is getting better but by no means should it be an equal comparison of what's ahead for these guys if they were to make the jump.

    The average US sports fan can't handle being just average at a sport and that's where this flack is comming from. MLS is at a good skill level and the national team is building off of the success from MLS...but by no means are we truly worthy of hailing our players as World Class. There's HUGE difference between a good player and a world class player.
  21. Cruyff14

    Cruyff14 New Member

    Aug 29, 2000
    DITTO Mundo
  22. Injuries


    Blah Blah Blah

    BOO HOO!

    Cry me a frickin river here!

    So if I remember correctly we had quite a few injuries.....Armas, Reyna, Stewart, DMB. But its a shame a teams true colors shine through adversity. Unlike other teams, we came through it all and played will. We were deep. We could throw those injuries aside and still field a squad VERY close to our best (and possibly our best). I think Figo was saying how this was his last chance...well whyd he play like a girl then? Why do they use these excuses...they go into these things all hyped and talkin stuff....and then when they fall in defeat because they played half potential they make all kinds of excuses....

    There will be no asterisk in the record books denoting a tired, aging, European "star" who couldnt hold his own because his head couldnt even fit on his shoulders. If you guys are so good over there on the old side of the pond, why cant you admit defeat? Its a shame our victories are tarnished by these crybabies who just cant admit it when they were beat. Suck it up...and watch it happen again in 06.
  23. TomEaton

    TomEaton Member

    Mar 5, 2000
    Champaign, IL
    "World Class" can mean just about anything you want it to mean. Garber makes a comment about MLS producing world class players, and if you want to prove he's an idiot, you define world class as being "among the best few players in the world at a position," which would make Garber's statement clearly false. If you want to make Garber seem sensible, you define it as "able to play well and win at important international competitions like the World Cup." It's an exercise in semantics and does no more to clarify how well MLS is really doing than Garber's original statement.

    MLS has problems, and Garber and the rest of the league honchos know that better than any of us here. Using his puffery as an argument that he doesn't understand the realities of the situation seems a little naive.
  24. JRedknapp11

    JRedknapp11 Red Card

    Dec 5, 2001

    You people always give me a good laugh.... Why do you claim all of Europe is angry at losing to the US. Last time I checked you played three European countries and only beat one. I'm not Portugese so why do I care ? I'm Irish and happy with how we did.The Portugese are notorious for getting to the big dance only to self there was no shock or crying that you've mentioned. The US squad did well but certainly not well enough to start talking about how most of the team are now world class. Last time I looked the US won 3 matches and lost 2...nothing earth shattering or world class about that.

    It's the same old story of bigsoccer....something doesn't go your way , so you scream Eurosnob. Footballing snob sure I'll take that label , but I'm not a Euro snob. The simple debate is that MLS does not have one... not a single one player that is worthy of being world class. I'll even take it to where it would make you people happy..... without even using one single player who is European or plays for a European nation... I could easily list 30 players better then any MLS player for each position.

    The whole article was written to make you understand that MLS and it's talent has a long way to go.

    I too like so many of you on this board have been watching MLS since '96 and I'm really happy with the progress of skill in the MLS. However, we are still a long way off and by no means should we start to talk world class , just because the US lucked out in the world cup.
  25. usbfc

    usbfc New Member

    Sep 8, 2000
    New York City
    Whether or not you want to like what he had to say in the editorial... he's dead on. When I read Garber's comments following the World Cup, I was so uneasy. And, this piece has cleared up exactly why.

    It is really idiotic to say these things about MLS and US Soccer. It really does damage soccer's credibility. And, I feel like the heads of footy aren't being honest and down-to-earth enough with us.

    When someone suggests something, lends facts that back the argument, but, leaves out the facts that would destroy the argument, it's called "manipulation".

    The US dominance, combined with our record against Mexico, AND our top ten ranking suggests our superiority. But, what about Mexico ranking 6th? What about Mexico finishing ahead of us in both previous rounds? What about us coming in 3rd? BEHIND Costa Rica and Mexico! Wow, really dominant.

    Oh, and I'm ever glad to see more of us slamming KC for their appauling representation of the US top flight soccer league. A disgrace.

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