goalie - possession - punting at edge of box

Discussion in 'Referee' started by blech, Aug 28, 2002.

  1. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    I was recently involved in a debate over the following situation:

    **The goalie gets possession of the ball in a lawful manner. The goalie runs to the edge of the penalty box. Before leaving the penalty box, the goalie throws the ball into the air in front of him, and then without touching the ball again with his hands kicks the ball directly out of the air (let's say a yard or two outside the penalty box). To the extent that it matters, assume the goalie actually kicks the ball (as opposed to merely releasing it from his/her hands) in less than 6 seconds.

    Before stating my view, let me ask you for yours: Can the goalie do this?
     
  2. Soccerfan20

    Soccerfan20 New Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    Columbus, OH
    great thread!! I've always been wondering where the thin line is drawn. . . what if a goalie doesn't release in time. Is it just a professional curtasy to not call it a hand ball?

    Can't wait to see the responses.
     
  3. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    Blech, maybe I'm missing something in your question, but I don't see an issue here. So long as the keeper releases the ball from his hands before the ball completely crosses out of the penalty area, he can do whatever else he wants after that. He can place the ball on the ground and dribble all day long if no opponent challenges him. He can punt it (or play it with any part of his body other than his hands/arms) in the air or after it hits the ground, in the penalty area or outside the penalty area. For that matter, he can simply drop the ball within the 6 seconds, turn his back and walk away from it. Makes no difference what he does after he releases the ball from his hands, so long as he doesn't pick it up again. Of course, as soon as he does release the ball, his opponents are free to challenge for it. Did I miss the issue in your scenario?
     
  4. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I guess it sounds like you're asking about the very common situation where every spectator yells "handball ref!" when the GK punts the ball right at or maybe a little bit over the line. Generally speaking as long as the keeper isn't really going way over the line with the ball in his hands to punt the ball it would be trifling to call it a foul. If he's gone over and you think it might become an issue a quick warning to keep inside the area would probably be in order.
     
  5. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Blech, there is nothing amiss in your main situation. As pk stated, he can do anything with it as long as the ball leaves his hands before it leaves the area.

    In the situation where he does carry it slightly over the line, the way I generally call it as an AR is if the keeper has his arms extended preparing to kick it and his hands go slightly outside the area before he drops it, I'm not going to flag it -- as Glenn said, trifling.

    If a significant part of his arms (say past the elbow) are outside the area before he releases the ball, I'll holler "Keeper watch your area." on the first occurrence. If he does it again, I'll flag it.

    If his body leaves the area before he releases the ball, I'll flag it the first time.
     
  6. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    Thanks for the input thus far, and in advance for any additional comments. I'll add at this point that I was the one in the debate (at a referee clinic) arguing that the goalie did nothing wrong in this play. So, it's comforting to hear that this is correct and that I'm not off the wall on this. It's probably not fair for me to summarize the other person's argument (since I never totally understood it), but the argument was essentially that the ball remains in the goalie's "possession" until he completes his punt and that the entire punt, for some reason, must be completed inside the box. From my point of view, as long as the ball isn't handled outside of the box, and as long as the ball is either kicked or released to the ground within 6 seconds, there isn't any infraction.

    Perhaps someone can clarify the "possession" rule for me as well, since this is one of the changes in the law from when I started playing and refereeing. From a technical point of view (since this is fractions of a second in any event), must the punt be completed before the 6 seconds expires or must the ball merely leave the goalie's hands? Also, can't the goalie after using most of the 6 seconds drop the ball on the ground (inside or outside of the box) and then dribble the ball for as long as he wants before kicking it up field or passing it to a teammate? There was also some suggestion that either (1) the dribbling of the ball after picking it up with the hands might constitute "possession" and thus was not permitted if the total time exceeded 6 seconds or (2) that the goalie must release the ball from his possession to another player and thus couldn't dribble it or otherwise play it after letting it leave his/her hands. These arguments were all news to me.


    [Of course, I understand that we are talking about very technical points here and that the goalie will often be given some leeway on the first offense for stepping over the line, but our discussion last night was about what is the correct call].
     
  7. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can see the point here. Given that we wouldn't let an opponent attempt to play the ball after released from the hand before being kicked, there may be some merit to this arguement.

    Here's the ATR info on this...

    12.16 GOALKEEPER POSSESSION OF THE BALL
    The goalkeeper is considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air. Possession is given up if, while throwing the ball into the air, it is allowed to strike the ground.



    First of all, the six second rule isn't a hard and fast time limit, so the time between release and kick would not matter (see point about reasonable effort from ATR 12.18 below).

    Second of all, the six seconds is from the time the keeper has taken possession with his hands (see first sentence) until he has put it back into play. When he drops it to the ground as when he is going to play it with his feet, it is back in play -- at that point in time any opponent may challenge for the ball. So both your points (1) and (2) are not correct.

    Here's the ATR info...

    12.18 THE "SIX-SECOND" RULE
    The goalkeeper has six seconds to release the ball into play once he has taken possession of the ball with his hands. However, this restriction is not intended to include time taken by the goalkeeper while gaining control of the ball or as a natural result of momentum. The referee should not count the seconds aloud or with hand motions. If the goalkeeper is making a reasonable effort to release the ball into play, the referee should give him the “benefit of the doubt.” Before penalizing a goalkeeper for violating this time limit, the referee should warn the goalkeeper about his actions and then should penalize the violation only if the goalkeeper continues to waste time or commits a comparable infringement again later in the match. Opposing players should not be permitted to attempt to prevent the goalkeeper from moving to release the ball into play.
     
  8. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was an identical thread before the Great Big Soccer Crash. First if the question is one of the keeper releasing the ball outside the penalty area it would be a trifling call. Remember, the law is there to prevent the keeper from gaining an advantage on 50/50 balls at the edge of the area. There the keepers use of hands outside of the area should clearly be whistled. You may want to warn the keeper to watch where he releases the ball. To call a DFK for this infraction is dubious and a gotcha call by a referee.

    If it is a question of the keeper releasing the ball into play. Once the keeper releases the ball, he may not touch it again until it has been played by another player or it will result in an IFK to the opposing team at the point of the infraction (This means he cannot kick it or handle it again).


    With regard to the six second rule, remember it is there to prevent time wasting by the keeper in situations where they are trying to preserve a result (sit on a lead or settle for a tie). Call it tight in those circumstances. The ATR posted by Kevbrunton should be what we strive for in these circumstances and do warn the keeper before you call it.
     
  9. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Alberto,

    We may want to clarify that after releasing the ball the keeper may not play it again with his hands until it has been played by another player. He may, however play it with his feet, kick, etc. after possession, but not after he restarts with a kick or goal kick because it would be a second touch.

    Sherman
     
  10. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is what I was wondering about what Albert said. From my understanding, a 'keeper has posession of the ball when controled by the hands (in general that means holding the ball) an no wistle for stopage is blown. Once the 'keeper drops (as opposed to bouncing) the ball to the ground, posession is lost. Since there has been no wistle for stopage, there is no restart, and thusly there can be no "second touch."
     
  11. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    As I read the posts, Alberto and Whipple are in total disagreement. Alberto says the goalie cannot "kick" it after releasing it, but Whipple says that he may "play it with his feet" and only cannot pick it up a second time. I thought the rule was pretty clear that the goalie is only prohibited from touching the ball again "with his hands" after it has been released from his possession and has not been touched by another player.

    Am I reading your post incorrectly, Alberto?
     
  12. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by blech
    The argument was essentially that the ball remains in the goalie's "possession" until he completes his punt and that the entire punt, for some reason, must be completed inside the box.

    I follow that "possession" may include the time when the ball is traveling from his hand to his foot (brief as that may be). But, that only seems relevant to the question of the 6 second rule, which I think you correctly note should be interpreted broadly. So, assuming the 6 second rule doesn't come into play, what basis is there under the rules for calling a handball if the goalie isn't handling the ball outside the box? Seems like the answer is none.
     
  13. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm certain that when Alberto said "touch". he meant "with the hands".

    Scott
     
  14. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    The keepers possession lasts until the ball has been released by the keeper into play and the keeper may not be challenged by an opponent while in possession. No, the entire punt does not have to be completed within the penalty area. I had a keeper on Tuesday who was a good four or five yards beyond the line on his punts. That is perfectly fine.

    As for whether a keeper can commit the offense of deliberately handling the ball, when while releasing the ball into play, the whole of the ball crosses outside the penalty area while still in contact with the keepers hands. There has actually been some debate on this., but here is how I apply the Laws in this instance:

    If, in the opinion of the referee, it was and accidental and unwitting consequence of the keeper putting the ball into play, no foul occurred, there is nothing to call, as with any other unintentional handling. This is not a measure of distance over the line, but a frank and honest assessment of the situation. Even then, if it looks questionable, it might be a good idea to remind the keeper to "Watch your line".

    On the other hand, if the handling outside the PA is done deliberately or cynically, either to gain some unlikely advantagem, or flaunt the Laws and thereby bring the game into disrepute, then some action by the referee is called for. If it is deliberate and tactical, stop play and award the DFK from outside the PA. If deliberate and cynical, add some choice words or issue a caution before you restart with the DFK.

    The key to officiating here is not the minutia or detail, but ensuring fairness to both teams and working witin the context and flow of the particualr match on the day you are doing it.

    A few years ago I had a B-16 premier league game on a particularly wet and rainy day on a very slippery field. Late in the second half, the keeper for one of the teams made a save at the edge of the PA, but, because the spot was particularly slick, he continued sliding until the ball and he were completely outside the PA. All the players stopped and looked at me to stop play. The keeper realizing that he was outside the area, pushed the ball away.

    One of the attackers asked me: "Sir, aren't you going to call the handball?"

    On the basis that the offense was not a deliberate breach of the law, I told him: "No, not unless he handles it again. The ball is still in play."

    The keeper then got up, dribbled the ball back into his own PA and picked it up. Now I blew the whistle, for the second touch, and the restart was and IFK from the point of the offense.

    For some reason , this second situation was more confusing to the players and the bench than not calling a foul in the first situation. Both coaches, who also happen to be varsity HS coaches, known for being abusinve to referees, were having fits on the sideline. I think they thought I was having some sort of senior moment out there.
     
  15. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks Scott, I need not to post when I'm tired and I need to proof read my posts more.
     
  16. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    "Sir"? hmmmm. i don't recall ever giving the ref that much respect when i was playing. :)

    anyway, thanks guys. as always, the discussion has been helpful for my focus on the rules.
     
  17. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Depending on how it is said "Sir" is not always respectful, but it is still preferable to "hey you blind idiot with the whislte", or words to that effect.

    Then again, a few weeks ago at a tournament one of the younger teams was calling me "Santa".
     
  18. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should hear what my son's team was calling you!!! ;)

    Scott
     
  19. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    It is probably better if I don't since I will likely have them again. ;)
     
  20. faizalenu

    faizalenu New Member

    Aug 11, 2002
    Massachusetts
    There is a difference between "possession" and "handling the ball".

    "Possession" is a term that is mostly used to protect the keeper. This keeps players from charging the keeper until the punt is complete, not just until it leaves his hands.

    "Handling" in just what it says it is.

    ==> You can have possession without handling

    CASE CLOSED.
     
  21. ignatz

    ignatz New Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    Washington, DC
    If memory serves, Jaime Moreno of DC United got a red card last year for going for the ball after it left the keeper's hands but before the keeper punted it. The ball was in the air at the edge of the area and Jaime, who was next to the keeper, swung a foot up and got it first.

    To those of us in the stands still rather new to the game, it was all a mystery. The explanation from more experienced fans around us was "dangerous play." The assumption seems to have been -- contrary to what has been said about possession -- that once the ball was in the air it was fair game as long as it could be gone after safely.

    I hope you refs don't mind us non-refs poaching on your threads. Its a way for us older newcomers who never played the game to learn more about it.
     
  22. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Welcome to the forum. All those who are interested in the laws and referees are welcome. And behave appropriately.

    I can't see giving a red card for the activities described above. A yellow would be appropriate.
     
  23. whipple

    whipple New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Interfering with the keeper returning the ball to play is misconduct. The player would be cautioned and shown a yellow card. If it was a second caution, it might have been a red. Alternatively, if it was violent, it might be punished as serious foul play, and then the player would be sent-off and shown a red.

    The ball is never fair game, until it is no longer in the keepers posession.
     
  24. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interfering with the keeper returning the ball to play may be misconduct. The caution is not mandatory.

    This is one of the reasons that the IFK was added for preventing the 'keeper from releasing the ball into play, so that you don't have to caution the miscreant.
     
  25. MPJ334

    MPJ334 New Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Chelsea,New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    they're got more experience than i do, which is y i read...i have 2 things to say a)goalies play hockey, soccer has Goal keepers or 'keepers :)D) b)I HATE ALABAMA! I WISH I LIVED IN ma W/ SCOTT AND WHIPPLE!
     

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