Discussion in 'Germany' started by IANausUSA, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Koeman using a German shirt to wipe his bottom? I was told that was in 1988, a tournament which I sadly missed. I should look up what happened sometime.

    Voeller-Rijkaard was obviously in 1990, but I don't think anyone in Germany bears a grudge against Rijkaard. He seems a fairly nice guy.

    I think it's a lot about Holland being a smaller neighbour. In Belgium they love to beat the Dutch, similar phenomenon.
  2. Qaabus

    Qaabus New Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Well, WW1 isn't an issue. The Dutch were neutral and made lots of money selling weapons to Germany. I think the two nations never even went to war with eachother before WW2.

    In 1974 the war still was still a major issue in the Netherlands. People hadn't forgiven what the Germans did to them and even today many that lived during that time never will.

    Thanks to the Marshall-plan the reconstruction went very fast West-Germany and people tried to move on with their lives. The Netherlands recieved very little help in comparison. That was considered unfair, because it were afterall the Germans who started the war. By 1974 the Netherlands had caught up but this fact was still a factor in the rivalry.

    And then there is the fact that some of the Dutch players families were murdered out in WW2.

    This all played a part in the Dutch team wanting to humiliate the Germans as bad as they could. That didn't work out as planned as we all know. Every Dutchman knows that the 1974 WC could have been won but was lost because of this.

    The Dutch finaly got their revenge in the 1988 EC. 2/3rds of the population went on the streets to celebrate the semi-final victory over the Germans in a mayor tournament in Germany in a German fashion (a late winning goal).

    Today the rivalry isn't as fierce any more. Most people that lived during WW2 are now dead and today most Dutch actually like Germans :eek:
  3. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I don't personally think the war has that much to do with it. The German government conducted extensive research in Holland a couple of years ago to find out more about the Dutch public opinion on Germany, and it was the younger generations that hated the Germans far more than the older generations.

    There are several reasons for the Dutch disliking the Germans. It is at least partly a David/Goliath thing - 40% of Dutch exports go to Germany, and the Dutch are very aware that their economy depends on the German economy. Then there's the clashing mentalities and cultures. Holland is a country where individualism and consensus rules - everybody has a say in Holland, whether it's the cleaner in the office or the third choice goalkeeper in football, people discuss and argue until they come to a decision that everybody can live with. Whereas in Germany the workplace is much more of a hierarchy where the boss decides. I'm not saying one culture is better than the other, it's just that the two are very different. Then, most importantly, the Dutch are very arrogant in thinking that they play football the way football should be played, and the Germans aren't. To us that was highlighted to the extreme in 1974: we still think that that Holland side played the best football ever in that tournament, and that we were robbed of the world cup. I remember when Holland were playing in Germany in 1988 and Germany was given a penalty (and went 1-0 up). The Dutch commentator said: "OH NOOOOO! Not again! The same thing is happening again!" - again underscoring the 1974 trauma.

    But that trauma no longer exists. Germany hasn't beat Holland in football in a long time. And France now is the most hated nation in Holland.
  4. ViscaBarca

    ViscaBarca Member

    Mar 26, 2004
    that seems to be an international trend lately... ;)
  5. KingVicTwenty

    KingVicTwenty New Member

    Oct 5, 2004
    In Mars
    Dutch can be spiteful. Don't forget they are the most egocentric, self-centred, and greedy culture. They value individualism over collectivism to extreme lengths and don't like the Germans coming to their tiny, claustrophobic, little cuntry. This is the root causes of this rivalry. :cool:

    Except for VFish of course! ;)
  6. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Everywhere except the 'Erbfeind' Germany... History can be weird, don't you think?
  7. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Yes but there isn't really any nationality which is disliked all over Germany, or can you think of one.
  8. 1900AFCA1900

    1900AFCA1900 New Member

    May 4, 2004
    Utrecht, Holland
    I thought the new trend was hating the USA. In Holland it's getting more populair every day!
  9. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    holland robbed 1974??? ..belgien was robbed against holland in the qualifycation games for this worldcup penalty call for belgien in the last game for a clear foul in the penaltiezone..this was the reason holland has played the worldcup and belgien not..the dutchs was whiners for a long time and its maybe over now since 1988...

    i dont think every referee give in the first minute of a worldcupfinal a penality cruijf got was on the line and yes it was a penalty...the penalty germany got wasnt to judge easy for the referee first..only in replay its to see that it was maybe no penalty but the action has affected hölzenbeins run and it was a action all or nothing against the striker and the ball....a correct goal was taken away gerd müller in the second half and was called offside..look the replay and the **************** offside call..this wasnt the firstime the refeere had **************** offside calls provokated from the dutch players in this game...have the dutchplayers scored 1 real good goal in the final against germany 1974??no!!...gerd müller has scored 2 nice goals , but got only 1 goal......
    and late in this game hölzenbein was fouled clear in the penaltyzone and got no call..this are the facts..i have archived this games..holland was the best team in the worldcup 1974, but germany was better,clever and not so arrogant than hollands team before and in this finalgame..

    both penalties calls 1 for germany and 1 for holland 1988 was questionable, so what did the dutchcommentator say after van basten got his penalty??......the action from some dutch players after the game was a shame...i understand a big celebrating after this victory but the way some dutchplayers have acted was a shame..

  10. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England

    Here is a Dutch view about the Belgium match:

    and here one about the final:
  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    That`s what I`m talking about here all of the time - the rivalry started in '74!

    Knowing that Dutch football is particularly popular in England (contrary to German football), I checked out and first searched for "Dutch Football" and then for "German Football".

    The search brought the following results (by English authors):

    "Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Football"
    "Ajax, The Dutch & The War: Football In Europe During the Second World War"
    "Dutch Soccer Skills" (a series with several volumes)


    "Fussball Book: German Football Since the Bundesliga"
    "German Football: History, Society, Culture & The World Cup 2006"

    Considering that these are books by Englishmen, a 2-3 defeat is quite honorable for German football! I do not have an overview of neutral football books dealing with Dutch or German football from outside of the English world.

    First, of course only since Holland became a power, there`s no need to highlight this (though it has to be pointed out that nobody forbid The Dutch to produce class players prior to the 1960s; it was not a law of nature that the Dutch were not able to produce competitive teams prior to the late-60s).

    And to finally settle this, just give me a list of Dutch players that played in high-profile leagues from the 70s to the 90s and I will compare it to the list of Germans that played in high-profile leagues (other than the Bundesliga of the 70s and 80s, which was high-profile enough for me). P.S.: no need to look at the last 10 years, because here we agree that Holland outperforms Germany.

    In England probably and some other parts of Europe, but this Dutch "we are more revered internationally" than XY is still pretty complacent. German football due to its well-known strengths has been quite fascinating to neutrals over the last 30 years. There`s actually been a huge interest (not seldomly bordering on admiration) in German football in many parts of the world.

    And for the very last time, the main reason Dutch players are more likely to go abroad than German players (or English, Spanish, Italian players for that matter) is that the Dutch leauge is too small. Clearly the nature of their league plays a crucial role in this.

    So most Dutch players had to go to foreign leagues to become high-profile, while German players (or English, Spanish, Italian) could just as well stay at home to achieve the same high-profile. Or they could go to foreign leagues. Thus German (or Italian, English, Spanish) players had two options to achieve high-profile, while the Dutch (in most cases) only had one option. This explains that there have been more German high-profile players (or at least the same amount) than Dutch high-profile players since the start of this rivalry 30 years ago. And add to this that German players more often exhibited their talents in World Cups and/or European Championships - which is a major source for international profilation.
  12. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    thanks for links..i have twistet the disallowed goal with a no penalty call last quali game belgien-holland 1973...its long ago..

    the article about germany-holland 1974 is well objektive written and not biased ..i dont know its the opinion of the majority of football fans in holland or only the meaning of the dutch person where has written this article...

  13. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England

    Yes, I also liked the analysis. Very fair, and very interesting.

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