Indeed, Helmut Rahn played in Holland during the early-60s. He played for SC Enschede. Rahn is one of the more underrated players - he scored 10 goals in World cups, but is not as fondly remembered outside of Germany as other, lesser players.
How is that "irrelevant"? You argued that Dutch players are somewhat better because they don`t stay in their own league, while Germans normally play at home. They stay at home because they can earn enough money at home, contrary to the Dutch players. Current German internationals like Ballack, Schneider, Kahn (when he was the best), even Klose, all got offers from clubs outside of Germany (Italian and Spanish), yet they refused to go. During the 80s and 90s, tonnes of German players were earning their money abroad, think Rummenigge, Schuster, Stielike, Netzer, Breitner, Matthäus, Briegel, Brehme, Klinsmann, Hässler, Kohler, Förster, Möller, Doll, Bierhoff. When Germany was good, their players were just as sought-after as when Holland was good. The mistake many people make is that they take the current German crisis (since about 1996/7) and assume that it has always been like this - when it clearly wasn`t. Every nation sometimes has to face a slump in talent (remember when the Dutch weren`t so hot in the early-80s, failing to qualify for three major tournaments in a row?). Well, of course. I never said that the Bundesliga is more interesting than the three leagues you mentioned. Yet it is still a big enough league (and tops all leagues in terms of attendance). And you are again making the mistake of only looking at the current situation. Yes, more Dutch players are seen by the world audience due to them playing in the big three leagues, contrary to German players. But this topic is about the history of Holland vs. Germany, and thus you have to look at the past as well as the present. The Dutch fixation with the current situation is understandable, but not serving the discussion of this topic. Germany is in a historic crisis these days - it has not always been as "bad" as it is today. I give you Stielike, but Bernd Schuster is easily on the same level as Ronald Koeman. And in Schuster`s special case, you must take into account that the only tournament he played for West Germany was the 1980 European Championship. His time with the German NT was limited, imagine he had played regularly for Germany during the 1980s, he would probably have been as high-profile as Gullit or Rijkaard. And I`m pretty sure a player like Lothar Matthäus (who is loathable as a personality), is still pretty well-remembered even outside of Italy and Germany. Same for Klinsmann. And another thing has to be taken into account, the best German footballers never played in a league other than the Bundesliga (not counting NASL): Beckenbauer and Müller (equivalent to Cruijff and van Basten). Still their worldwide profile is as high as that of the two Dutchmen. As Dead Fingers already pointed out, it was the # of players I was referring to, not the # of awards won. It is... Müller, Beckenbauer (2x), Rummenigge (2x), Matthäus and Sammer vs. Cruijff (3x), Gullit and van Basten (3x).
G: great post. And that is in no way a disrespect to Neeskens. Just a great conversation all around. Thanks to both. Schuster, like Cryuff, seemed more loyal to his wife than his National Team. Good for them - I respect that! But it would have been nice to see Schuster play a little bit more for the NT.
...and even in crisis years, they go to the worldcup final game, for the seventh time, compare it to the 2 times Holland did that, not to mention the 3 : 0 stars on the shirt. Or the 5:1 Euro final attendances, or the 3:1 Euro Championships. Johan Neeskens, don´t take me wrong, I respect Hollandse Voetbal and I have seen some very nice games of them during the years, but what the hell we are talking about?
Yet, at the moment? The last game Holland : Germany was at the Euro, and Holland was obviously not better. In my opinion Hollands team is getting old, yet they have some good youngguns like Rooben and v de Vaart. Germany has a very young and promising team at this time and I think there is a rather good perspective for 2006. I doubt that Edgar Davids or v Hoijdonk or some others will be too old in two years and if Holland can substitute them well. In Germans team Ballack and Frings will be in the best age for leading a team and all the others will be around 22-26 and hungry.
Let's see. I also thought Germany were better in that particular match, but Holland have enough good players without Davids and van Hooydonk (see Robben, Sneijder, vdV, Kuit (sp?), van Persie - lots of good young players). If they manage to sort out their defensive problems they'll be a serious candidate to win WC 2006. But yes, things are looking up for Germany too. I am hoping for a Germany vs Holland final.
To be honest, you´ll always have to have luck to go to the final, but maybe England beats Brasil in Quarterfinal, and then the final must be shifted, because after a 4:4 in extratime in the semifinal between England and Holland they are in a penalty kick out since 4 days, still standing 0:0
Actually Holland did quite well in their last penalty shootout (against Sweden, wasn't it). They are turning into us....
The dream final in 2006 would be definitely Germany:Holland. With Holland taking home the cup of course. Just to start off a tradition of German-Dutch finals, giving room for endless debates on Bigsoccer...
Yes, this was of course not meant to be a complete list. See Dead Fingers' previous post about German players in Spain and Italy for a more complete account.
What did they place their country between Germany and Fance and Belgium? Really that was all before Germany, Holland and Belgium. Joking.
It's irrelevant to the 'who's more high-profile' discussion. I'm saying that the Dutch are more high-profile than the Germans because there's simply more of them in high-profile leagues. I know you don't like to hear this but the premiership and Italian/Spanish leagues simply are more high profile than the Bundesliga. Again I'm not saying anything about the quality of players. It's just that a 20-year old Dutchman like Robben doing well in the premiership will always get more media coverage than a 20-year old German doing well in the Bundesliga. One might not be better than the other, it's just that one gets more attention in the press.
Getting old? Hahaaaaaaaaaaa! You're joking right? We've got one of the youngest squads in Europe at the moment. There's only three veterans: Van der Sar, Davids, and Cocu.
You could turn it around and ask: how come a small football nation like Holland has actually done so well and has earned such a reputation for great football. Germany is a big football nation, the German FA is the biggest football association in Europe.
People have gotten hurt, but nobody ever died True. On the Dutch girls men-wishlist the germans rank only just below leprotic Chinese farmers with one leg. If I'm not mistaken the only immigrant we have playing for us now and then is Clarence Seedorf. IIRC germany and the netherlands have the biggest number of players in official clubs per capita worldwide.
Actually the DFB is the biggest national association of a single sport in the world with around 6,3 million members in 170.000 teams from 26.000 Clubs. The total membership is divided in: 3.583.685 (men seniors) 492.399 (men 15-18) 1.339.500 (men under 14) 635.072 (women seniors) 222.148 (women under 16) 6.272.803 (total)
That's what I figured. So why is it then that you've underperformed over the past six years or so? I seriously wonder, this isn't a wind-up. Is it to do with a lack of youth programmes?
2 time WC quarterfinal 94-98, WC final in 2002 wouldn´t be called underperforming in almost every other country instead of maybe Brasil. 2002 Euros out was a little unfortunate in a hard group I think, 2000 was realy bad. Overaged team and bad coaching. Since Klinsmann, Völler, Bierhoff retired we had no world class strikers, thats one reason. lack in midfield because Sammer got injured in 1998 and couldn´t be substituted until Ballack came, is the othr. Bosman played his role, because during the nineties it was hard for young german players to get into Bundesliga Teams, because many of them played with cheeper east europeans. And we had this Boris Becker Tennis boom in the late eighties, which takes a lot of the around 1975 born Kids to tennis. Nowadays I think it´s significante that we get few more good young players, could be the kids that went to football because of the 1990 Worldchampionship.
I think it's a lot to do with kids being more attracted by other sports. Boris Becker has probably something to do with it, but also basketball invading Germany (when I was at school it was considered far more cool to play basketball, football was something for the farmers). Then there are lots of other popular sports like handball, squash, table tennis, skiing, badminton. I think Holland is a bit unique in concentrating on only a few types of sports, something that might also explain the wealth of footballing talent they have (per capita, like we figured out after looking at the statistics). I might be wrong, but from what I see, Holland has world class athletes in football, ice skating, field hockey, swimming, horseriding, cycling (one, albeit a very impressive one) and, to a lesser degree, volleyball. Did I forget anything (correct me if I'm wrong, Johan)? That's a very restricted choice of disciplines, and much less of a body-drain to football. This is actually why I'm worried that Australia will get into football. There's a country that truly defeats statistics, in terms of great athletes/capita. Even though some of their most poular sports don't get any media coverage outside the Commonwealth.
Maybe the quality of those said programmes? I really don't know, but maybe someone here could speak to the quality of the youth system. I also think that arthur d and herewego are both correct as well.
Yes, any German or Dutch youth coaches out there? That would be interesting. Notable in this context that Klinsmann is asking American coaches for help, and he's not stupid, although easily excitable. But then again the French youth system, which was supposed to be the best in the world when France had their successive successes, seems to be failing all of a sudden? Now the world's best youngsters are Brazilian, Dutch, Argentians, maybe English?