True. No doubt, in terms of talent/capita, Holland are very impressive. I actually thought you had more talent than Germany full stop, but after looking this up I don't really believe this anymore.
It would be absurd if we did have more talent really. It's just that our talent is more high-profile for some reason. People like Gullit and Van Basten are better known than people like Klinsmann among those who aren't necessarily experts.
On that note, Robben is a good example. He's what all the hype's about in England right now - same thing happened to Van Nistelrooy, and to Bergkamp before him. Meanwhile I can't remember the last time a German footballer grabbed the headlines that way. That's not to say that the Dutch produce more talent - it's to say that people generally get more excited about Dutch talent. I'm not really sure why that is.
Not sure. I think you're just about edging it re high profile, that's why 2 of your players won it 6 times. There's not much between Cruijff and Beckenbauer though, and I'd trade you Gullit and van Basten against Mueller, Matthaeus, Maier and Rummenigge. same level really. I just mentioned Klinsmann cos he won the player of the year in England, but he's not in the German top ten.
From an English point of view, that's true, you must have lived in the UK? As I said, also generally true for the last ten years, or maybe slightly less. Not true more than ten years ago in Italy and Spain though. I used to read the Gazetta dello Sport when Bierhoff played for Udinese and Milan, and there was a lot of excitement in Italy back then. There's always been a tradition for Germans to play in Italy (maybe the defensive style suits), and there are strong links in general (see Michael Schumacher). But in the UK, fair enough, that's the English-German rivalry. Klinsmann was one of the few exceptions, do you remember when he was at Tottenham in 1993 (I think)? Oh funnily enough, I think there's no Dutch player who ever got an OBE but there's a German one.
I'm not trying to wind you up here! The thing is Arthur, the Germans are predominantly known for their team spirit whereas Dutch footballers are appreciated more for individual skill. That probably explains it. The Dutch style of football leaves more room for developing individual skill than German football (though I'm sure Klinsmann wants to change things). I quite like Klinsmann btw. He was never a hate figure in Holland.
Yes I know, I was just saying what I thought. I agree with you on that anyway. I am also fairly pleased with Klinsmann, though he can be too radical at times, and can have problems when somebody with a different opinion gets in his way (see Matthaeus vs Klinsmann at Bayern). But German football needs these radical decisions at the moment, otherwise we won't have much of a chance at the WC, and sofar it seems to be working fairly well. Hope the tedious goalkeeper debate doesn't mess things up.
I think it is great to observe (from afar albeit) the debate in both countries on their respective national teams. The sad thing about the goalkeeper question is that all three are fairly high quality --why would any coach make a decision about his number 1 till just before the WC. All three deseve some playing time--regardless of their personalities
Johan, the reason why German players are more likely to play in their domestic league than Dutch players is that the Bundesliga - like it or not - is one of the big leagues, while the Dutch league is just too small. And your "high-profile" comment is only justified for the last 10 or so years. Prior to that, as arthur already mentioned, Germany had many high-profile players that were appreciated in the league they played. Uli Stielike, for example, was voted best foreigner player ever in Spain! Hard to believe, I know. Bernd Schuster is a legend in Spanish football, having played and won titles with all three major Spanish clubs (the only player ever to achieve this). Helmut Haller was one of the best players in the Italian league of the 1960s, and Karlheinz Schnellinger is still a household name in Italy today. Rummenigge, Matthäus, Brehme and Klinsmann were all high-profile players in Italy during the 80s and 90s. No other nation has had more players win a "European Player of the Year" award than Germany. Coincidence? Hardly. That`s enough "high-profile" players for me. That being said, Holland compared to its population has probably produced more great players than any other nation (not just Germany, also Brazil).
G: I was just looking at "Tor" and Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger says that it was Schuster "Later the Spanish Press voted him the best foreigner ever to grace their league, ahead of Alfred Di Stefano and Johan Cruyff". Probably another survey oh well.
Could be. Maybe Stielike was voted best ever foreigner for Real Madrid (hard to believe when they had Puskas and a couple of others). I couldn`t believe it myself! All this is "high-profile" enough for me!
I think beneath that german players more often stay in Bundesliga because they can achieve enough money there and there are more than 1 or 2 top teams where you can get reputation period, the big difference is, that Holland has a lot of worldclass strikers, often more that they all can join nationl team, but rarely goalies, defenders, midfielders. Germany has thru the times delivered lot of prime players in all positions. I think that is allthough the main reason for the much more titles Germany won compared to Holland. In my opinion, the 1988 Holland team was the only complete team they ever had. In that time they had for once top players from goalie to striker. Even 1974/78 Holland had some of the best players in the world but some rather mediocre too. Hollands offensive football ideology lets them sometimes forget, where the games really are won. You have to control the game, and thats why german teams thru the years get their titles. In football history, some of the best strikers ever came from germany, but obviously some more from holland, but you can´t play with 8 strikers you need only 2 or three. In all other positions, there came a lot more top players from germany, especially the players that decide the games, goalies, centerbacks, sweepers, No. 6s, playmakers. That´s where the beef is. Think on goalies like Maier, Schumacher, Kahn, defenders like Förster, Kohler, Schnellinger, Sweepers / 6ers like Beckenbauer, Matthäus, Sammer, Effenberg, Stielike, playmakers like Netzer, Overath, Schuster, Fritz Walter. (you know, there were much more, I just collect the very best and I´m surelly forgetting a few) That amount of decisive players can´t be compared by holland. The fewer than holland german world class strikers are in the way Germans understand the game only a topping to it. But Seeler, Müller, Fischer, Rumenigge, Klinsmann, Völler, Biehoff and some others aren´t so bad either. Hollanders always only count their offensive abilities and forget their problems in defense and often in cotrolling the game. Thats the reason why they so oftenly are wondering in the end, why the don´t get thru the tournaments, when it comes to crunshtime against teams with discipline and a tactical plan to control the game. Sometimes they overrun their opponents with big hooray, 5:0, 6:0, but see, how often they have big, big problems with smaller football nations which fight and block the free spaces on a football ground.
herewego: I agree with some of your sentiment, but I somewhat disagree that Holland is strictly offensive and sometimes forget about their defense. They have produced some quality like Stam (just to name one). I would also disagree with your comment on the 74 Dutch team. I will overall defer to her highness Johan Neeskens to answer this properly, but let me first take a stab. Would it be wrong to say individuality and personality might be an issue with Holland playing as a cohesive unit? This may sound funny, but I am glad that a lot of American players have gone to Germany and a few to Holland as well. I think our players are better served going to these countries as opposed going directly to leagues such as EPL.
Dutch players move away because they can earn more elsewhere whereas Germans can earn plenty in the Bundesliga, I know that. But the reason for moving away is pretty irrelevant - fact is that more people are interested in the premiership, Italian league and Spanish league than in the Bundesliga. So they're more likely to see the Dutch stars than they are to see the Germans. I'm sure the Germans are very much respected everywhere they play. But I'm also pretty sure that outside the countries where they've actually played, names like Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard and Koeman are better known than Stielike, Schuster et al. Also I put up the European player award statistics. It was won by a German 7 times - and it was also won by a Dutchman 7 times. So you are mistaken where that's concerned.
Well fact is that ever since the early 1970s Holland has committed to a specific style of play - the 4-3-3 with two proper wingers. Some managers tried to abandon it (Hiddink, Advocaat) but Holland's always returned to the system. It's now even in Van Basten's contract with the Dutch FA that he is to make Holland play that way. It's a very attacking system that will always leave room for the opponent - even smaller nations will create chances against us, but that's a calculated risk. The Dutch philosophy is and will remain (and Cruyff's literally said it) It doesn't matter how many goals you concede as long as you score more. I personally think the popular 'Holland doesn't play as a team' is a myth. Anyone who's ever played football (and I still do) knows that for an attacking 4-3-3 'total football' system you need extreme tactical discipline from eleven players. If the left back runs at the opponents defenders the left midfield will have to take over his job, for example, and the striker in a 4-3-3 has a far bigger workload than the striker in a 4-4-2. So on the pitch, I think the Dutch have great team spirit. Off the pitch Dutch footballers are individualists - Dutch people in general are. Dutch footballers are invited to discuss tactics with the manager from a very early age. You could argue that that has made them argumentative and difficult, but you could also argue that that's exactly why a small country like Holland has been able to produce so many great footballers. You've got to take the good with the bad, basically. If Holland hadn't put the emphasis on individual skill, we'd probably be just another Northern European outfit. Now, we're pretty special in the world of football (that's what I think anyway).
Oh and btw, it's not so strange to want your players to start their European career in Holland or Germany. Ronaldo and Romario picked PSV Eindhoven to kickstart their career and they didn't do so badly.
Yes I agree that there is a misconception of the Dutch playing individualistic football.. Your problem is I believe quite the opposite. You are to obsessed with the system , forgetting that, in the end it’s about the players. Is it a coincidence that you’ve had excellent results under reasonable and flexible coaches like Hidink and Advoccat and a complete disaster with an ideologue like Van Gaal.
Well you do have a point. But the only prize we ever won was with a 4-3-3 under Rinus Michels (the greatest Dutch manager ever) in 1988.
You just happened to have a group of players who fit the system. But it’s stupid to hold on to it when you don’t.
You are right, de Bundesliga is a bigger league than the Eredivisie. It's logical that no German top player would play for a Dutch club, he would stay in GErmany or go to Italy, Spain etc. But the avarage players could play for Dutch clubs, and they don't. Maybe because the Dutch clubs don't want Germans??? I can't remember that a German player played for Ajax...
I am being pedantic, but he was saying "no other nation had more players win..." so he was right, as we noticed it was 5 Germans vs 3 Dutch. Gullit, van Basten, Rijkaard, Koeman vs Matthaeus, Schuster, Rummenigge, Voeller - not much between the two I would say. I thought we settled this already by looking at the European player of the year statistics?
Not Ajax--but I think Helmut Rahn played for Neeskens' Enschede (around 1960) --Am I correct on that?
Horst Blankenburg. He formed a great central defense with Barry Hulshoff in the Ajax team that won the EC in '72 and '73. He never played for Germany because Kaiser Franz stood in his way. I`m sure Dutch clubs are not keen on German players. But that has probably more to do with the Dutch mentality. And tell me, how many average Englishmen or Frenchmen are playing in the Dutch league? Not too many, I guess.