Discussion in 'Germany' started by IANausUSA, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    During the same time span, Germany suffered the following epic defeats:

    20-06-54 3-8 Hungary, Basel (WC Group stages)
    28-06-58 3-6 France, Göteborg (WC, 3rd place match)
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    I disagree. Counting from the 1950s onwards, Germany had plenty of talent:


    Give me the Dutch equivalents!
  3. $crooge

    $crooge Member

    Jun 2, 2004
    Mainz, Germany
    FSV Mainz 05
    Nat'l Team:
    The years before '74 do not count since there was no rivalry between Holland and Germany at that time. So no Fritz Walter. :)
    And the Dutchies had more talented players within the last few years than Germany had in almost 30 years, according to your list.
    Of course, there always were some really talented players and the two WC teams (74 and 90) had quite a lot of talented players, but besides that...

    @Grootste Nederlander
    These TV-Shows cant be taken seriously anyway. Those people who watch shows like this usually arent the smartest ones... ;)
  4. LordR

    LordR Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    Are you serious??
  5. shutoutj

    shutoutj New Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Rome, Georgia
    Dude, where's Littbarski? He's was a great player.
    Also add Bierhoff, just for his headers.
  6. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England

    Thanks, that's a lot of talent actually, especially given that you leave out the goalkeepers which are one of Germany's traditional fortes. I need some time to come up with the Dutch equivalents, or maybe you could do this for me, Johan? I won't be able to judge anything before 1974.
  7. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Thanks for looking this up. Of course Germany didn't play any international matches between 1943 (surprisingly late!) and 1950. I had to go back to 1939 to find a 1-2 defeat against Luxemburg and a 1-5 defeat by Hungary. And we were beaten 0-5 and 0-6 by Austria in 1931... never knew that.
  8. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Still 400,000 Dutch people voted, that's 2.5% of the Dutch population. Not a bad turnout for something like this.

    About the talent, you are being sarcastic now?
  9. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    I will start, but I need more time

    van Nistelrooy
    van der Vaart
    van Hooydonk
    van Basten
    van Hanegem

    a bit heavy on the recent ones...
  10. CharlieBrown

    CharlieBrown New Member

    Nov 14, 2004
    cryff, van vasten, ruud gullit, berkamp, sedorf, van nilsterrooy,
  11. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Turns out that there were computer problems, as a result many votes came in too late to be included in the result. The final result is that William of Orange won, he got 30,000 more votes than Pim Fortuyn. Thank God for that.
  12. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    1974 was the first international tournament the Dutch qualified for! Still one legend is Abe Lenstra, who was offered a contract by several Italian clubs in the 1960s but didn't want to leave his farm in Friesland so instead went to play for my club (FC Twente). There's also the first Dutch footballer ever to go abroad, Faas Wilkes - he's some kind of legend in Italy, too. And there's the Feyenoord hero Coen Moulijn.

    My favourite Dutch footballer of all time is Johan Neeskens, but he wasn't the best ever. My top 10 is:

    1. Johan Cruyff
    2. Marco van Basten
    3. Dennis Bergkamp
    4. Johan Neeskens
    5. Frank Rijkaard
    6. Wim van Hanegem
    7. Ruud Gullit
    8. Robbie Rensenbrink
    9. Frans Thijssen
    10. Epi Drost

    People who are in other people's lists typically include Ronald Koeman, the De Boer twins, Frans Thijssen, Arnold Mühren, Arie Haan, Johnny Rep, Ruud Krol, Jan Wouters. More recently Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf, Ruud van Nistelrooy. List goes on and on really.
  13. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Yes I just heard that as well. Good!

    Als noodgreep besloot de producent, Eyeworks, alsnog het stemmen via SMS toe te staan. Daardoor werden op het hoogtepunt van de avond in korte tijd zo veel berichten verstuurd dat opnieuw vertraging ontstond bij de verwerking van de gegevens.

    Op het moment dat de uitzending werd afgesloten stond Fortuyn volgens de telling op dat moment aan kop. Hij had 115.000 stemmen, tegen 111.000 voor Willem van Oranje. Maar telling van álle stemmen na de uitzending gaf Willem van Oranje een overtuigende voorsprong: 161.000 tegen 130.000.
  14. LordR

    LordR Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    Van der Vaart, Sneijder, Robben, VAN HOOYDONK?
    No bad players, but look at the Germany-list and what the players listed there achieved and what status they have.... The standards for the two lists must be the same, otherwise it can't be compared.
  15. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    Fair enough, van Hooydonk doesn't belong in there I guess, and the others are also a bit debatable. As is Deisler in the list of German players of course. But then again it was about talent and not about achievements.

    So I suppose we've established that in terms of World Class players Germany and Holland were fairly even over the last 30 years, or maybe Germany have the edge. I wouldn't have thought so, my impression was, simply from watching Holland play, that they have more talented players available. Maybe it's just that there aren't many Jeremies style players in their team, at least not as many as in the German team over the last thirty years?
  16. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    Also Holzenbein, Effenberg and Vogts. Not many defensemen in the list for a team known for rock-solid defense.

    Germany's problem is, Ballack is the only guy on the list who can play now. Deisler, forget about the nutcase, it will be a miracle if he ever makes an impact on the national team. Fragile physically and mentally, not a good combination.
  17. balla

    balla Member

    Sep 16, 2004
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    I think there are a lot of up and coming good German players. There is the defence which played vs Cameroon and must've done a good job since they didn't concede any goals and i heard they dominated the game. The midfield isn't bad, there is Frings and Ballack from Bayern and i also believe Schweinsteiger should get a start aswell. They are missing a left sided midfielder, we all know this but they also have some good strikers. eg Kuranyi,Klose,Podolski. I just hope that Podolski moves to a good club and i also never want Lehmann in goals again. If Klinssman isn't sure on his number 1, he should give Hildebrand a chance.
  18. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    If someone can bother to google it, we could perhaps compare how many European and world players of the year both Holland and Germany have produced. I think it's pretty fair to assume that Holland has produced more internationally recognised football stars than Germany has over the past 30 years. Pre-1970s Dutch football was virtually non-existent on the professional level.
  19. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    That was my impression, but you didn't back me up with facts.... don't think you can claim this anymore unless you actually bother to google.
  20. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
  21. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
  22. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004

    Only stats I can find on world footballer of the year.

    I'd just like to add that Dutch footballers are in any case much more high-profile than the Germans because Holland has always had far more footballers moving away and playing for the top clubs in Spain, Italy and England.
  23. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Doesn't surprise me one bit, Germany have a far bigger talent pool to fish from (based on the fact that the country is far bigger and the German FA is the biggest in Europe I think)
  24. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
  25. arthur d

    arthur d Member

    Oct 17, 2004
    Cambridge England
    That's true now, but maybe not 10-30 years ago. Most of the good German players played abroad. Klinsmann was a hero in England, Bierhoff won the golden boot in Italy three times, Schuster and Heynckes were/are heros in Spain, also as managers, Rummeninge, Voeller, Breitner played abroad... long list. Difficult to google, but would be interesting to compare.

    No debate that Holland have more talent now of course.

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