General Appointments Discussion

Discussion in 'Copa América 2024 - Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, May 31, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1 MassachusettsRef, May 31, 2024
    Last edited: May 31, 2024
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Argentina : Canada - VALENZUELA (VEN)
    Peru : Chile - SAMPAIO (BRA)

    Ecuador : Venezuela - ROLDAN (COL)
    Mexico : Jamaica - ELFATH (USA)

    If there was any doubt that this is a CONMEBOL tournament and Rizzoli is checked out in Germany, there's your confirmation. Remember, on paper there are 23 referees so everyone (save one referee) gets one group stage match. We'll see if that's really true or not, but it doesn't auger well for Elfath if it is. Penso is his 4th, so wonder what match she now lands on, if any. Also interesting to see where the Italian lands.
     
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  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40360793/how-much-money-us-soccer-make-copa-america-2024

    This article is interesting and is a sign to not expect too much from Elfath and the US referees.

    Basically, CONMEBOL was pissed that the US made so much money from the last Copa that was held in the US. They have engineered the contractual terms for the US to not make as much money as they did last time.

    That mentality will naturally trickle down to the referee assigning.
     
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  4. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Out of all the matches they could put Elfath on, why would they choose a Mexico match?

    Is the goal to only use CONCACAF refs on the two group stage matches between two CONCACAF teams and give all the rest of the matches to CONMEBOL refs?
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The goal is to not care one iota about CONCACAF.
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uruguay : Panama - MAZA (CHI)
    United States : Bolivia - MARIANI (ITA)
    Colombia : Paraguay - HERRERA (ARG)
    Brazil : Costa Rica - RAMOS (MEX)

    Ramos gets similar treatment to Elfath, I'd say. Though slightly better in that he gets a South American team. I wonder if using Elfath early opens the door for a second match when CONMEBOL inevitably(?) doesn't use all 23 referees in the middle. We shall see.

    US getting the guest referee is interesting.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, in thinking about the stature of these assignments, given there are no 3rd place wild cards I would argue that matches between the 2nd and 3rd betting favorites are where you'd place your best referees (or, obviously, on consequential MD3 games--but you can't know that ahead of time). Pre-tournament, the 2nd v 3rd betting favorite matches are:

    Chile : Peru
    Ecuador : Venezuela
    USA : Panama (though there's a wide gap here)
    Colombia : Paraguay

    Sampaio got the first one above. Roldan got the second one. Herrara has the last one. All those track with the idea that the biggest names will get those games.

    That just leaves USA : Panama. I wonder if CONMEBOL sticks a CONCACAF referee there or treats it as important and slides in someone like Claus.
     
  8. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Why wouldn’t they put Barton there? He gets a game and he doesn’t have to see a CONMEBOL team at all.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, they might. And I think they will, honestly. Or Escobar, for that matter, as maybe they hold Barton in higher esteem given his opening match FO assignment?

    I'm just wondering if they consider it a slightly bigger match and put a CONMEBOL referee there. But if I were betting, yeah, I'd say Escobar or Barton.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    This sort of PR makes me believe we won’t see Alves or Penso in the middle unless there’s a dead rubber on MD3 (which there very well could be, though). I could be wrong, however.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Venezuela : Mexico - CLAUS (BRA)
    Ecuador : Jamaica - GARAY (CHI)
    Peru : Canada - ESCOBAR (GUA)
    Chile : Argentina - MATONTE (URU)
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uruguay : Bolivia - BENITEZ (PAR)
    Panama : United States - BARTON (SLV)
    Colombia : Costa Rica - TEJERA (URU)
    Paraguay : Brazil - MAZA (CHI)

    So Maza is already repeated on MD2. Curious, but perhaps not really.
     
  13. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    So strange that the CONCACAF crews are only being assigned to games with CONCACAF teams involved....
     
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  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But is it really that strange?
     
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  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Across these two editions now, the only all-CONMEBOL group stage affair that a CONCACAF referee has seen is when Marrufo had Chile-Bolivia on MD1 in 2016. That involved the 90+10' penalty for handball (before +10' was really a thing).

    Aguilar and Garcia got KO matches where they saw CONMEBOL teams, but I imagine that was helping to fill a quota. I wonder if CONCACAF keeps that quota of two KO matches this time.
     
  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's really amazing how CONMEBOL treats the CONCAF referees as second classes citizens.

    They don't even pretend that they want them there.
     
  17. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably the only thing that would change that is another round of USDOJ indictments...
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I kind of get it, though.

    They are only there because--results notwithstanding in the last 24 hours--four or so weaker teams are there to grow what is otherwise a tournament that belongs (in the officiating sense) to these South American referees. Why should they give up several marquee assignments when the CONCACAF guys have Gold Cup? There's no exchange here, like with UEFA. It's not one referee being swapped and being treated as an equal. It's just a growth of their refereeing corps due to certain teams being present. So why not make them (mostly) referee those teams? I bet it was painful to concede a semifinal last time and it really makes me wonder what we'll see this year.

    Now, I could make an argument that a top CONMEBOL guy might get a lot out of doing, say, USA-Panama or Mexico-Jamaica. But I suppose such an argument would fall on deaf ears.

    Now, the actual smart thing to do here would to just take 12 referees (so probably only 2, maybe 3 CONCACAF) and go at it with 2 group stage matches per referee--make it a really marquee thing. But CONMEBOL, seemingly like every other confederation aside from UEFA--has too many political itches it needs to scratch. All 10 member nations must be represented. Brazil and Argentina must get 2 referees (so other nations must, too). Women need to be named. And CONCACAF gets a full complement. It's all pretty silly.
     
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  19. Pelican86

    Pelican86 Member

    United States
    Jun 13, 2019
    But does CONCACAF really care? I doubt it. Yes, I'm sure the CONCACAF referee admins want the best for their refs. But I'd be willing to bet that CONCACAF as a whole is just overjoyed to get a nice chunk of the income (there was a good article on ESPN a few days ago about how USSF made a ton of cash the last time Copa America was in the US, but now CONMEBOL and CONCACAF are making a much larger portion of the revenue. There's very little incentive for CONCACAF to raise a stink about refs.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well the top admin is in Frankfurt assessing Slovakia v Ukraine tomorrow, so I personally wouldn't be too sure.
     
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  21. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    No match thread for Mexico-Venezuela?

    Pretty crazy match, with an obvious PK converted by Rondon to put Venezuela up, and VAR-advised PK for a brutal handball (it was pretty much self-defense) missed by Pineda for Mexico, and plenty of argy-bargy in between.

    Probably no worse than a normal Copa Libertadores match, though, and Claus is a pretty experienced ref.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My ability to both watch games and be engaged here is limited in a way I wish it wasn't for these two tournaments. But to be clear, anyone--including you--is free to start the match threads!

    On the assigning front, Venezuela v Jamaica now presents the perfect opportunity to use one of the female referees. The question is whether it's Alves or Penso but perhaps that really isn't a question. We'll find out soon. If results go a certain way tonight, Panama v Bolivia would also be open for such an appointment.

    Mexico v Ecuador and Canada v Chile are both huge now. Neither will be easy. Very interested to see how these appointments are handled. You've got a lot of referees who haven't had a match yet, though they also aren't the most experienced so maybe they never were going to get one? Then you have a bunch of country conflicts to navigate AND some of your perceived top referees have all worked Group A already relative to that Canada v Chile game.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jamaica : Venezuela - MARIANI (ITA)
    Mexico : Ecuador - ESCOBAR (GUA)

    I don't think any pair of assignments have shocked me at a tournament more than these have. Like, what on earth is this? You give the Italian the nothing match and you put Escobar--Mario Escobar--on what could be the biggest first round match for progression purposes?

    If you had given me 20 guesses to get the name right for Mexico-Ecuador, I wouldn't have done it.
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Canada : Chile - ROLDAN (COL)
    Argentina : Peru - RAMOS (MEX)

    These are much less surprising and I expected Roldan there. But the idea that there were really 23 center referees at this tournament is now thoroughly debunked.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just now noticing that Brooke Mayo is AR2 for Escobar, filling in for the AR who collapsed. And Tori Penso is 4th.
     

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