Format for 28-team league.

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by shizzle787, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is why I asked you to name them. So go ahead, give me "way more" than 25 MLS-caliber U23s that skipped MLS for Europe in the last 5 years.

    But if they're already in MLS then this hypothetical team wouldn't allow MLS to "save" them from going to Europe as they were already saved.

    I'm trying to get a real number behind this claim:
    Is it 5 players? 25? 100? My gut tells me a "small %" would be single-digits but go ahead, show your work, maybe I'm wrong.
     
  2. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A U23 MLS team is a bad idea because you're compiling a group of players without a home, who have no history together, have loyalty to other teams, and which will likely turn over week to week and be unstable. Its not a competitive concept to put individuals together in a team sport. MLS has done this before, it was hard to put a team together and it was expensive and ineffective. It's just a wacky idea.
     
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  3. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Another reason why this is a bad idea. You keep calling this a solution to a 27 team league. When exactly is MLS going to be a 27 team league on the field? By my understanding this is how the timeline works. It is at 24 teams now. In 2020 there will be 26 with Miami and Nashville. In 2021 Austin will join along with St. Louis or Sacramento which will be announced at some point this year. There may be some hiccups along the way but MLS is going to go from 24 to 28 teams with no lag in there at 27.
     
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  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure you can say St. Louis or Sacramento will join Austin in 2021. However, I think your overall point is that 27 teams isn't an end point for MLS, which is true. I'd also add that MLS isn't particularly worried if they have an odd number of teams, so even if there isn't a 28th team in the queue, who cares?
     
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  5. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Fair enough. I tried to get a caveat in there but I should not have said "with no lag in there at 27." There may be a short lag.

    Yep, MLS survived with 23 teams last year. The schedule wasn't noticeably different than this year with 24.
     
  6. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That team played a full schedule, all on the road. It was terrible. It didn't work because any useful Pro-40 player would stay with his MLS team because his team was using him. So the squad got whatever scraps it could get, not necessarily young players. I remember Garth Lagerwey played some games for the team just because they needed somebody in goal, and he wrote about how ridiculous it was in his old online column.
     
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  7. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    with 27 mls teams there will many more viable players to use.........that was a different era....

    if everyone hates this idea, what is a way to change the status quo and get more u23 players the playing time they need aside from USL?
     
  8. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    the choice used to be:

    go to MLS and be a starter and likely be stuck in MLS for your career b/c you would have to play out 4 or 5 years in the league and if you wanted decent money before then you'd have to sign on for even more years and then by the time that contract was over you'd be too old for a euro team to buy you and then also re-sell you so euro teams just bought younger players.

    it isnt just talent that determines which players get bought it is talent/age ratio...that's why alphonso davies is on bayern right now....if he was 26 he would have been stuck in MLS most likely....at least until his contract runs out...sorta like lucho acosta (thought that isnt a perfect analog)

    overall - it was a bummer to be stuck in MLS unless you got lucky enough to be in the perfect situation to shine.....

    the choice now is: euro reserve or MLS reserve for good young players.

    i think MLS would be better off in the "race for talent to sign with the league vs Europe" if they made the decision into: MLS starter or Euro reserve....

    its not like playing more u23 players is going to damage the product of MLS....euro leagues dot it a lot.......that's how you get the sanchos and pulisics....

    if you wait until players are 24 to give them playing time it is too late for them to become top-tier players at anything more than a very inconsistent rate
     
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Getting better U23 players (and/or coaches better at determining the talent of their team).

    Either you're good enough to play in league matches and you play, or you're not and you're on the bench or playing in reserves. There's no good reason that the first-team should be forced to play players just because they're under a certain age. If U23 players aren't currently playing it means either they aren't good enough, or they are and their coaches don't see it. So fit those problems, don't force sub-standard players to play instead.
     
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  10. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously, Adam -- when are you going to get it through your head that it isn't MLS' sworn duty to help the national team and young players? Having a team play MLS league matches that isn't actually a team isn't going to happen.
     
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  11. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #261 EvanJ, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
    The time is driving. If I was giving a distance, I wouldn't have used a colon. Adding an extra game isn't hard. Last year the Eastern Conference clubs had to play two clubs three times to make 34 games, and the Western Conference clubs had to play one club three times to make 34 games. I don't know if anybody wants to count how many seasons had balanced schedules within each conference, but plenty of seasons haven't had that.

    If you care what American sports fans are used to, you go with 2 conferences of 2 divisions rather than 4 conferences. NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL all have two groups. I'm not saying those leagues do everything better than MLS, but being different could make it harder for MLS to attract new fans. If somebody asked an MLS fan why the playoffs had two leg series, the MLS fan could respond that that's how it's done in soccer. If somebody asked an MLS fan why MLS hypothetically had 4 conferences, it's not how soccer is done anywhere else. Double A and A Advanced Baseball have three leagues, and the NCAA has many conferences, but none of those are top level pro leagues.

    It would be misleading if a club said they had the most Midwest Conference championships (making up a conference name) when they had 2 of the first 3, and whatever clubs had the most Eastern Conference and Western Conference championships would have a lot more than 2 because those conferences would be about 25 years older. It would also be easier to move up to having the most Eastern Conference or Western Conference championships if clubs ahead of you were in new conferences, and conferences are easier to win when they have fewer teams.
     
  12. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't think there is a solution outside of USL because USL is the solution. Lower leagues are the answer worldwide for players who aren't contributing at the top level. It's certainly a huge step up from college soccer. MLS clubs are quite literally invested in the growth and improvement of their young players. The best will develop and be of great use to the clubs, when they prove themselves better than those above them in the squad or starting 11.
     
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  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    I dont trust MLS clubs to evaluate their own players properly....and actually give their youth enough of a chance. youth cannot prove themselves better than those above them in the squad when they never/barely play....

    I just don't buy it that all of the young players who arent breaking through in MLS are not good enough to be playing....how can they prove anything when they barely play? or never play in MLS?
     
  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its called practice, where coaches see them every day and we don't.
     
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  15. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I just don’t buy it that some rando on the internet has a more accurate handle on player ability than the professional coaches who watch these guys play every day.
     
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  16. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I honestly don't get it. This is exactly the purpose of USL! Would you be disappointed in U-23s starting in the English Championship or League One or BuLi2?
     
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  17. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    First, as noted, practice matters. It always has. Most improvement, most development and most evaluation comes at daily practice sessions.
    Second, they are playing, quite a bit, against professionals in USL. Why would clubs use a level above the play of their players to prepare them for that level of play?
    Third, MLS academies and USL sides is still a very new thing, yet we're already seeing progress, and where we aren't it's often because the system is being figured out. Meanwhile, young players are getting more playing time in MLS than ever before, and they are getting a ton of time in USL.
    The US has been in need of this sort of player development. the results we're already seeing are substantial. Your solution would not necessarily benefit the players (I don't think it would, at all, but you do, so it's opinion) but is unworkable in a professional environment.
    The very best MLS academy products are getting overseas offers, Davies, McKennie, Adams, Weah, etc. The next level are starting for their MLS clubs (RSL v Dallas featured 8, so many games feature at least one -four homegrowns). the next level are getting decent time in sub roles. The next level are getting a ton of playing time in USL. And the levels below that are aspiring to that level.
    The correct reaction to this is "finally!"
    The US now has an actual development system. It's very new, but it is producing a pretty decent rate of very good players. This is how the best systems work worldwide. This is how the system works in Brazil and Argentina, Germany and England, etc.
    Blowing it up is counter productive, both for the individual players and the good of the game in the US.
    Edit to add: The average number of homegrowns now playing regular roles with their clubs in MLS is somewhere around 1.5 to 2 per club Using your system, the U-23 team would be made up of players who are beneath those 36 to 48 in the club pecking order.
     
  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    i'm not advocating blowing it up at all.....

    but it needs to be supplemented.....

    finally becoming an MLS starter at age 24-26 just isn't good enough for development in this country.

    you mention 36-48 in "regular roles" ....getting odd appearances here and there isn't good enough....most of those players are not starters.

    where are the success stories of players starting off in USL and getting to a UCL or even decent euro team...or even becoming a good USMNT player...?

    how many times has that actually happened?

    i'm not against USL at all...it's great ....but it hasn't proven that it truly helps players become GREAT. and THAT should be the only goal.

    you also say it is unworkable in a professional environment and that it wouldnt benefit players at all and that they are already playing a lot...LOL....USL games are not going to benefit any player as much as MLS games....if all these players could be playing UCL games it would benefit them a lot....IDK what you are thinking...but it is obvious to me that the higher level a player plays at the better they will be...regardless of how intrinsically "good" they are.......

    also if this wouldn't work ...then no loan would ever work........but teams send players to random teams all the time....
     
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    USL is cool but hasn't proven anything as far as being a TRUE path to the top of the sport, imo.

    Where are the USL success stories????
     
  20. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    lol yeah MLS is world-renowned for its coaching acumen.....:rolleyes:

    foreign coaches flock to MLS in their off-seasons to learn from the MLS coaching gurus.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    that's why one of the best MLS coaches left MLS to become an assistant in Germany....lol.......

    they watch players. from very close. so what.
     
  21. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    https://www.socceramerica.com/publi...s-soccer-beasley-convey-head-u-23-roster.html

    in the earlier days of MLS this used to happen all the time where a U-whatever squad would assemble and head over to europe for games....

    didn't matter that they had never played together before...

    didn't matter i most of them hadnt actually played in MLS before....

    didn't matter if they were going to go up against better competition...

    there is a precedent for MLS putting together these types of squads in the past.
     
  22. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What are you talking about? that's a US U-23 team. They were getting together for a camp as the article says, to prep for Olympic Qs. They still do this sort of thing. As a national team, they fit in the games they can during the international schedule. MLS didn't put it together, it just contained some players who had been on MLS rosters, just as has every recent US nat squad.
     
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  23. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    MLS used to do this....put together select youth squads and tour europe....
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    er...Cincinnati.
     
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  25. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    i'm not talking about expansion teams...I'm talking about players.

    ....and even then you do realize that in today's match ZERO 2018 FC Cincinnati USLers started for FC Cincinnati today!!!! ZEERO



    i'm talking about the following scenario:

    player x had an amazing USL season

    MLS team Z noticed and signed that player.


    Player X became a noteworthy MLS player/starter/star.

    MLS doesnt even care what anyone does in USL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    when was the last time you heard an MLS team say....man that guy killed it in USL last year...we are opening up our checkbook and bringing him in!!!?

    there have been a few of those stories (kinda)....but there haven't been enough to reasonably say that USL success is a legit pathway to MLS success for anymore than 1% of USL players....

    it just isn't enough of a carrot for USLers at the present....there needs to be another level in-between USL and MLS in my opinion...one that is actually close to being a regular MLS player.....there's too mnay players who could be or are good enough for MLS who don't get any playing time at that level.

    the bridge between USL and MLS is too far at the moment.
     

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