Firing Hudson and Other Diatribes

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by roachboy, Oct 12, 2003.

  1. roachboy

    roachboy New Member

    Aug 1, 2003
    Baile atha cliath
    GET A FU*^&%NG GRIP!!!!!!!!!! i AM TOTALLY SICK OF THIS CRAP!!!!!!!!!

    Listen, there are several reasons why you are wrong.

    1) 'DC continues to play bad' is total balls. They are a much better team than last year.

    2) Ray is clearly trying to get the young guys in. Problem is........they are mostly crap. You can say that it's their fault for choosing them, but what are they to do?! They choose the top scorer in college (Esky). They play him. He's nowhere near good enough. Neither are most of the others either. Q2 is roughly the same age but is better and therefore gets played. No one would have bet against Esky before the draft. This is because the college leagues are fairly crap also. Please don't reply to tell me I'm wrong. Only if you think MLS is a fantastic league could you appreciate college soccer.

    3) They may not be a great team as yet, but genuinely good teams are built from the ground up, they don't just materialise. It takes years, even with vast amounts of money. This follows on from point 2. Without either the money to buy in good players from other leagues (not just be a retirement home for the aged) or to get players young, and in big numbers (the few like Convey are not enough), the team can only progress slowly.

    Honestly the other teams in this league are not significantly better. It feels this way when we loose, but when we win we claim to be world-beaters. Neither is true.

    One final point (cat amongst pigeons):

    4) If I hear one more time about how MLS teams are really great and us Euro snobs just don't realise, I'm going to claw my own eyes out. A few dodgy wins over some EPL teams who are playing as if they are having a kickabout with their friends means a big fat NOTHING. Ask anyone who saw the Milan-Barca game at RFK. They were just shockingly far above the quality of the game here. Jesus, even my scottish friends felt embarrassed to tell me what they thought of the quality of the MLS games that can now be seen on TV there, and the scottish league is the biggest joke in Europe.

    The league is growing, The sport is growing in this country, DC is getting better and will be better again next year with some dead wood replaced.

    I re-iterate: get a grip. Keep some perspective.
  2. Serie Zed

    Serie Zed Member

    Jul 14, 2000
    I've said it all season...whatever Hudson has done well, with the draft picks and allocations we've had for the last two years, we should be contending for MLS Cup. We could still make a fluky run, but the truth is we're middle of the pack and that's not good enough give the resources we've had at our disposal.

    He needs to go.
  3. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    ... mod's note ...

    I split this out from the post match thread. 1) It was off topic because it really didn't have anything to do with the match. 2) It was arguably trolling and as it says, no flames, no trolls.

    ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

    Faint praise in light of 1) how bad we were at times last year and 2) how awful we've been since Olsen and Rimando got injured. I think I said it elsewhere but our record in the last 10 games is barely better than Columbus - a team that everyone generally regards as quite lousy.
    Which young guys and how do you know?
    Who else besides Eski? What about Warren or Stokes or Namoff or the various other young guys. Your whole opinion on this matter seems to be based on one player who didn't work out.
    Chicago 2003, San Jose 2002, Kansas City 2001 and Chicago 1999 would all beg to differ. It simply doesn't take years to build a great team in MLS. Indeed, I challenge anyone to name one great team in MLS that that was built in the manner described above. The closest that you'll find, I think, is DC United in the early years. But that team really wasn't built over many years. They won the cup the first year and were an undisputed powerhouse thereafter ... until Rongen.
    San Jose and Chicago are significantly better. Particularly Chicago. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.
    I hope you feel better after writing that. It sure was a waste of time for me to read it though.
    DC United peaked several weeks ago. We're currently getting worse.

    Dead wood? Like Hudson? ;)

    By the way, the charge made by EuroSnobTrollers that various people think that MLS is a "fantastic" leaque that's played at the highest levels and that it’s on par with say EPL and La Liga is so ridiculous and in my experience so unfounded that I can only consider it blatant and unimaginative trolling.
  4. basso

    basso New Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    firing hudson would do nothing more than push united back to where it was with rongen. we seem to have a load of fans who are aching for the days of arena, and that isn't going to happen.

    roachboy has many good points. we need to continue to work with the team we have now.
    we need to stop whining every time we lose.
    we need to support our boys AND our coach. he's made some great choices - both with the players and with the positions.

    coaches like sven goran erikkson (or martin o'neil) aren't begging to come to the states and lead our paltry team to victory. it would be far better to keep hudson than to replace him with a potential rongen-ite who messes up what hudson is building.
  5. Serie Zed

    Serie Zed Member

    Jul 14, 2000
    You guys don't get it -- it just doesn't take years in MLS to build a champion if you've got picks and allocations. And Hudson's had two years, a host of draft picks and several allocations. Plenty enough for a very good coach to build a Cup contenders.
  6. McOwen

    McOwen Member

    Jun 13, 2000
    Retirement Community
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I get that the "Fire Hudson" comments and the "we suck" rants are so predictable after a rough stretch that it has become a real bore.

    Even if we stagger into the playoffs and LOSE I think we still owe a lot to Hudson for this year. He has crafted a gutsy group of guys that I am proud of for the first time in at least three years. The team has improved each year he has been here.

    --A top notch SI addition next year and a bit of luck (in avoiding the injury bug) and I think we will be real contenders. (And if we arent you can finally unleash the zombies...)
  7. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    I like your optimism, but do you realize that we will have to cut players just to make next year's salary cap, mush less add any "top notch" SI? Adding said SI would be an admission, with the huge turnover in personnel that would require, that our present team doesn't have what it takes.
  8. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Not true if the Etch retirement rumors are true. He's max salary and I suspect we'd get an allocation for his departure.
  9. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    DC United
    I'm expecting a lot of turnover this offseason. We have some serious holes to fill and some positions that need backup. We need to pick up:
    A) A solid, defensive midfielder-This may or may not have been filled out had Convey gone overseas. We were prepared to bring in Colosimo on trial and, if he worked, he would have filled that hole that we have desparately tried to fill all season. I expect he will be the person we look at given that we have an SI spot available.
    B) A creative, attacking midfielder. If Etcheverry retires or leaves, then we have to find a replacement. Convey may or may not be able to take over that position. I would rather we look for someone rather than risk it all on Convey. We can use an SI slot, allocation (if we have one), or trade for a player. Any way it goes, it needs to be done.
    C) A strong, finishing forward. Now this one is anyone's guess. I don't think our core group of forwards is that bad, but others would argue that we need at least one strong finisher. I see this position being the most talked about and the one everyone is the most anxious about.
    D) A solid, backup defender. Now our core group (Prideaux, Namoff, Stokes, Petke, Nelsen, Ivanov, and Reyes (when he returns)) is fine, but we have
    been suspect to bad games all year. I don't think we need to be perfect, but we need to be able to sub anyone out and not worry if they'll screw up. I don't see Ivanov returning next season. That's just my opinion, but if he doesn't, that opens up an SI spot that can be used for A, B, C, or D. I really like that option over his suspect play.

    So that's what we need playerwise. To do all that, we will have to cut some players or trade them away. I see Etcheverry and Stoichkov retirng, opening up two spots. I see Barclay being released, and possibly Alegria as well. I think trade bait will be Q1, Q2, Eski, Namoff, and/or Ivanov and Alegria (if we want something for him). I don't know if Hudson will be around to see all that through, but there is definitely room for improvement.
  10. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    It's worse than you think with the addition of Cerritos. We almost have to cut Etch just to get below the cap with no room for pricey additions. The following is a list of probable salaries that Marco10 posted a few weeks ago:

    So look at that 1.45 million in salaries: Besides no Etch and Nellie, there's no Q1. No Martins. No Alegria. No Stoichkov. NO Reyes. No Eskandarian, who will most likely come off the P-40 list for next year. Still on P-40 are Warren, Carroll, Stokes, and Geddes. That 1.45M leaves about 250K total to add seven players- and there's no way that any of those seven are gonna be anyone with a rep wityh the little amount of money that we have to spead among seven players.

    Unless we really start hacking at our roster. And I mean hacking.

    Who knows- maybe Convey moves to Germany this winter. Maybe Olsen will get an English Div 1 club to sign him. Maybe we trade Olsen, who's turned into our best attacking player. Maybe we trade Reyes....

    Christ! Knave and others, as good of a cap position that Hudson and Trask got us in last offseason, this offseason we are in cap jail. Again. On a team that may not even make the playoffs.
  11. greatscott

    greatscott Member+

    Dec 21, 2002
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    first off...
    what the hell is a diatribe?
  12. mikesterw

    mikesterw New Member

    May 2, 2001
    Long Island, NY
    di·a·tribe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-trb)
    A bitter, abusive denunciation.

    or at least thats what has to say (one of the meanings).
  13. John_Harkes_6

    John_Harkes_6 New Member

    Mar 29, 2000
    Baltimore, MD.
    It is my knowledge that the allocation allows you to trim part of the players salary for that first year. So Earnie and Ivanov count a lot more next year than they do this year.

    I could be wrong on that but I swear that I heard that somewhere
  14. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    That's true. I edited my post just above to look at salaries more in depth. The picture is, well, kids should not be allowed to see it even if parents are there to talk about it afterwards.
  15. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    DC United
    Ursula, I'd like to believe that we have more room than that, but we have no way of knowing what every player makes and who's salary is going up. I tend to believe that we will offload or trade at least 5 players. I think we'll have another rebuilding season, but I don't think it will be near as bad as that table makes it out to be.

    That being said, this offseason will be completely different. San Diego may be named an expansion team for next season, meaning there would be an expansion draft. There's also the possibility that the rules may change (gamewise, moneywise, salarywise, playerwise, etc.). There is nothing concrete as far as I'm concerned.
  16. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Yeah, maybe the salary cap will go up lots, but jason, where in those figures do you see problems? These numbers that Marco10 wrote didn't come out of thin air. They are well educated estimates that have been reported at various times by guys like Goff. The salary cap is that tight.

    I would expect that if there is an expansion draft that we'd put some expensive guys on it (Ivanov say or Q2). But it seems like expansion will be put off for the next year. Baring that we better hope that there's one or two existing teams that will have lots of cap room and will trade with us.

    Now we can see how much of a roll of the dice it was to trade for Cerritos. We basically took an expensive untradeable player to make the playoffs and his salary will bite us big time next year.

    Maybe the rules of MLS will change this offseason to make it easier to have more expensive players, but that would be a total reversal of direction. The most I could imagine would be a slight upward movement in the cap (say 250K). But even that would be a change of direction- something that hasn't happened for years now.
  17. Cweedchop

    Cweedchop Member+

    Mar 6, 2000
    Ellicott City, Md
    I think it's no great secret that I've been in Hudson's camp all along..

    That's not to say that he couldn't stand a good bit of improvement in a few areas when concerned with this team..

    With that being said though, this teams very modest goals were two-fold..

    1) make the playoffs - right at the doorstep

    2) improve over last season - they have done so and then some..

    That second point is definitely up for debate but the facts are clear.. We already are 6 points ahead of where we were last season with two games left.. One must also consider that this team has dropped a significant amount of points with OT losses and losing leads late in regulation.. Conversely, we have also won matches under the same conditions but if I were to take the time to analyze each game, I would venture to say that we have lost more points at the end of games than one them.. I know all teams deal with this adversity as well as with injuries but United has had some key players drop out at bad times and somehow Hudson gets blamed for this..

    I understand some posters frustration with Hudson when it comes to certain things with this team.. Lineups, tactics, subs (or lack there of) or whatever.. It's all part of the package we get with Hudson like it or not..

    Simply firing the man for improving this team, whether one thinks so or not, is not reason enough to fire him.. The players enjoy playing for him (with one notable exception) and he coaches with sheer passion.. Some say that's not enough and that very well could be the case, but let's face it, we're not left with very many good options now are we?

    I've had the priveledge during the course of the season to be brought on Dyson's radio show and also to write for and this opportunity has afforded me a different view of this club and how it is run.. Along with that priveledge is a insiders knowledge of how some things are dealt with and all I can say about that is there is a hell of a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that no one here has any idea about and that makes a world of difference and if you knew some of the things I know of, you just might change your opinions on some things..

    Talking of firing Hudson right now or after the season is premature and silly.. Once we qualify for the playoffs, the team will have accomplished all of it's goals coming into the season..
  18. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Some notes on these salaries ...

    - Stewart 275K
    - Cerritos 150K ~ He's starting to look like the washed up forward we feared he might be. If there's a better prospect out there then we've gotta drop him.
    - Olsen 150K ~ Olsen isn't going anywhere. I don't know what he's at now but I doubt there's any reason to offer anything higher.
    - Marco 200K (conservatively, as he has to re-sign, but it won't be easy to reign his salary back in to less than 250K) ~ I shouldn't say anything.
    - Convey 150K ~ It doesn't matter. He's here for a year. After that if he's gonna to to Europe it ain't gonna matter how much MLS is paying him.
    - Dema 150K (deserves this much) ~ 20% less than Olsen.
    - Nelsen 200K (it will take this much to even have a hope of keeping him) ~ Again, there's a whole lot of talk about Nelsen going to Europe. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then I don't think any defender is worth 200K.
    - Petke 120K
    - Ivanov 100K ~ With Reyes back there's no reason to keep Ivanov around.
    - Prideaux 90K
    - Rimando 100K (minimum, could easily be more) ~ I think we should trade Rimando when Chivas enters the league in one year. So we're basically talking about keeping him on for one more year.
    - Q2 100K ~ Q2, for his own good, should probably be traded.
    - Namoff 50K ~ A good cheap player. Just what DC needs.

    I think there's room to manoeuvre there.
  19. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Okay. But where? I agree about Ivanov. But we can't just cut Cerritos or anyone else with a guaranteed salary.
  20. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Fair enough. But as someone who hasn't yet called for Hudson's firing I have to counter some things:

    - Yes, the team has had injuries. It's had personnel problems. It ain't easy to run a professional team. But has it been that much harder to run DCU? I can't see that Ray & co. have had it that much harder than several other teams higher up in the standings.

    - Yes the goals, modest as they are, are likely to be met. But then that implies that we will build on what we've done this year for next year and as the salaries I've listed above imply, we won't be going the slow and steady approach this winter as blasting the roster to get under the cap. That tells me that regardless of wht management has said were our goals this year (modestly making the playoffs) what in reality was happening is that we building a team that can only last one year together- much like his Miami Fusion- before it gets broken up. I see no vision. And I see no future with this team. I have little confidence that Hudson and Trask can do this winter what Yallop did last winter or what Wilt/Sarachan did last winter.
  21. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    First off ...
    Olsen and Kovalenko are out of contract. The trick is to sign them at about the same amount. Etch is out of contract. If he comes back he needs to take a very deep pay cut. (Which would actually probably prompt him to leave.) Nelsen's contract goes one more year. So that's whatever it is now - no raise. Convey's contract still holds the same and it's less than the estimate above.

    I know that we're probably stuck with Cerritos. Ivanov we both agree is expendable. Quaranta and Quintanilla are tradeable. And so is Rimando. Hristo is probably gone too - though he doesn't really count much against the cap because of the assistant coaching deal.
  22. The Artist

    The Artist Member+

    Mar 22, 1999
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same argument as last year.

    Who's going to replace Hudson? Two years ago he was the best coach available. If his contract ends and there is someone better available, then great. Otherwise he's shown enough improvement under difficult circumstances to warrant another year or two.

    The biggest problem for this team, and for Hudson, is Etcheverry. Not because Etch isn't still one of our better players, but because he simply is no longer worth a max salary slot. He also doesn't fit in to the style of play of the rest of the team. Hudson clearly likes a team of two-way midfielders. He's got that now with one exception. I'd like to see a Hudson team built around an attacking mid of his choosing before I condemn him.

    Hudson has several deficiencies as a coach, but I think his professional experience as a player gives him an advantage in some situations over the likes of Bradley and Sarachan.

    Most of the optimistic prognostications for this team were based on the assumption Stewart would score 10 goals and Esky was the best college forward and Q1 would finally break out. I don't pin the failure for any of these assumptions to come true on Hudson. We've now got great goalkeeping for the first time in team history. We've got one of the best defenses in the league. We have a considerably tougher midfield. But we have no strikers, as sormun points out each week. Hudson brought in two sure things. Neither has panned out yet.
  23. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    DC United
    I would argue that Stewart was never a sure-thing goalscorer wise. I think everyone knew he would be a great playmaker and thought that would lead to goals. However, I can't fault him because a) he was away with the national team for awhile, b) not until recently did he have a decent stiker to team with, and c)injuries have forced him to take over other positions that don't give him the same opportunity to score. I want to see what he can do when he can play a full season as a striker. I think we would see a truer version of him as a player.

    My take on Hudson is this: over the past few seasons, he has made great strides at improving this team. He prepared as much as he could to build a team that could compete week in, week out. However, he has also constructed a team based on a core group of players and was not prepared for injuries. He has also switched his lineup so often that it is hard for this team to find a formation and style that they can play consistently. Saying all that, I really want to believe that he can turn this team around even further. He has done quite a bit in one season and the offseason may be an extension of that. I don't know if he'll be around, but unless someone better comes up he should remain as coach. I just hope that he gets a lineup he likes and sticks with it.
  24. eltico

    eltico Member

    Jul 16, 2000
    If Curt Onalfo, currently Arena's assistant with the Nats, wanted the job, I'd say it's his. When he organized and prepared the team for the unity games two years ago the players raved about him, and, frankly, considering how Arena's assistants have done in MLS (Bradley, Sarachan), I'd be willing to say that Onalfo could do no worse of a job than Hudson, with the potential of doing a much better job.

    That said, if he doesn't want it, which I think is likely since the way things look now he'd be the top assistant for the WCQs and 2006 WC, then who else out there would be any good? Lagos the Elder? Harkes? Any good MLS assistant coaches?
  25. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Right. Okay let's start with the players you haven't mentioned:

    Stewart- 275K
    Cerritos- 150K
    Petke- 120K
    Prideaux- 90K
    Namoff- 50K
    Convey 150K (I expect him to have an escalator clause)
    Quintanilla- 100K
    Eskandarian- 50K (will no longer be P-40)
    Reyes- 150K
    Rimando- 100K

    The add Olsen at 150K (NO salary increase. I also wonder if he'll go to England anyway- Say he offers Forest a one year deal @ 200K- a great deal for Forest and it would get Benny's foot back in the door. Maybe he'd give us an allocation too.)
    Nelsen- 70K (escalator clause again but I'll bet you anything that MLS seels him while they can.)
    Kovalenko- `100K (minimum. No way do we hold him below that)
    Ivanov at 100K (sorry- until you can find a team stupid enough to take him, he's ours)

    So far that totals: 1.405 million or 295K below the cap. That's with 14 of 18 players and no Q1, Stoichkov, Alegria, or Martins. No Etch obviously. Losing Etch gives us an allocation probably which in turn gives us a discount on a foreign player. Still we can't use the whole or most of the 295K on an allocation as we have four roster spaces to fill.

    That leaves trades:

    Rimando? Sure he's good, but what team will trade for him? C-bus? I doubt that there would be a team that would trade for him as his salary will escalate in a couple of years.

    Ivanov? A 100K SI who isn't very good?

    Q2? A 100K TI who probably won't warrant an SI slot when he comes of age?

    Cerritos? Good luck in trading him.

    Olsen or Convey would get lots of interest though teams may not trade if they knew those guys were going overseas. Stewart I bet would also get interest. Prideaux could get us Albright...

    I guess bottom line is, yes, we can trade some folks. Obviously we will get below the cap one way or another. But equally obviously the team will look quite different next year and that to me does not mean that we are following any kind of plan in returning DCU to respectability. Rather we are just improvising on the fly, one year at a time.

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