FINAL - GER : ARG - RIZZOLI (ITA)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. jeffmefun

    jeffmefun Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Quakeland, CA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Apologies & usual caveats for posting stills, but I think these are somewhat interesting, esp wrt the question about inside/outside the area (appears just inside, but too close to call?):

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    and this shot, which shows Higuain looking where the ball might have been had it continued...
    [​IMG]
     
    Thezzaruz, jarbitro and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  2. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One, he was hit in the head first by Neuer's knee. It is physically impossible for him to be hit first by the thigh, then by the knee because the knee leads the action. Two, your statement that "every forward will run in the position to get hit by the keeper..." is not, IMHO, even a consideration here. Most of us acknowledge that both players had the by-the-rules right to collide. Neuer, at least IMHO, absolutely does NOT have the by-the-rules right to have his knee raised to the height to clobber Higuain in the head. It is always dangerous. A knee can do more damage than a foot. To be clear, I have no idea whatsoever as to what the CR actually saw or thought he saw.
     
  3. Irrover

    Irrover New Member

    Jan 6, 2014
    Club:
    Ventura County F.
    Just on my monthly USSF training(Cal south) , the instructors were all adamant this was a PK and SFP
     
  4. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    They need some new instructors then :)
     
  5. Luckyone

    Luckyone Member

    Nov 29, 2012
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    It is in the ARD Mediathek don´t know if itßs avaible in your country
     
  6. Luckyone

    Luckyone Member

    Nov 29, 2012
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    So a red card and a Penalty against Romero in first half?
    He did not rise his Knee, his play was by far more dangerous then Neuers.
    If Klose would run further he would be hit by Romeros Foot, if he run in the right position he would even be hit in the face.

    And Please relook the Scene: He was first hit at the Shoulder then at the Head, and first by the tight and then by the Knee
     
  7. NJDevils1087

    NJDevils1087 Member

    Jun 25, 2010
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    Wigan Athletic FC
    I'm going to just put this out there. As sports fans, we have to accept that the professional game has developed to such a level that we simply cannot comprehend at some levels the sheer pace and physicality of it. We need to desensitize ourselves from these kinds of spectacular-looking hits to be able to step away and critically assess them. It's no surprise that in ice hockey, the more heavily suspended hits are open-ice ones as opposed to those along the boards, despite the fact that the angle of players' necks, backs, and knees along the boards often make dirty hits there MUCH more dangerous than ones in the center (barring a KO, helmet loss, and face/head impact with the ice). This is no surprise... not because we are bad at assessing the damage, but because we are bad at avoiding the bias of the spectacular. It looks much worse, and therefore must BE much worse. Not necessarily the case.

    A poster on reddit used the term "same moment" to define the timing of Neuer's punch and collision with Higuain. Unfortunately, we have to accept that in professional sport, even 0.1 or 0.2 seconds is no longer the same moment, the players have such athletic ability. A tie must truly be a tie to even begin consideration. This is why things like offside calls are so wildly controversial.

    As plenty of screencaps and videos here show, Neuer got to the ball well ahead of his collision with Higuain. I would respectfully disagree with those who feel Neuer's leg is placed in a distinctly offensive/intent-to-injure manner. If he comes in "Superman-style," with no leading legs, he faces a very real risk of getting flipped over Higuain and potentially landing on his head or neck. Equally if not moreso dangerous than the hit Higuain took.

    At the very least, I would certainly challenge you to argue why you think the Neuer play is more dangerous and dirty than Garay fairly blatantly (even in real time) lingering his shoulder too long into Kramer's jaw/temple. Because while Neuer was actually making a legitimate challenge, Garay had no business even risking the shoulder-on-head collision to play that ball.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Stop going to class.
     
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  9. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Couldn't agree more. The Garay play was so dirty. I can't believe no one is talking more about that. It was probably one of the dirtier plays in this World Cup.
     
  10. That Cherokee

    That Cherokee Member

    Mar 11, 2014
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    One of my national assessor friends has said that restart should be a throw in. Should be interesting if ussf puts this play in a training video.
     
  11. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member+

    Leeds (for now)
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Considering that I'm a USSF state instructor too, if you were in my class you would not be getting the same message from me.

    Until FIFA / USSF come out with some formal interpretation on this play, I would not be offering such conclusions to my students in a formal training event.

    There are just far too many diverging opinions on this incident from referees of all levels on this play to be making a conclusion (and teaching that conclusion) such that it that becomes essentially black letter law for the referees - especially in a state as large (and influential) as SoCal.
     
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  12. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member+

    Leeds (for now)
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #263 USSF REF, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    [​IMG]

    It appears from this view that neither the knee nor thigh made contact first. Rather it is shin to shoulder... then knee, but this does imply to some degree that Higuain doesn't have any "established position" and that his head is moving into the space that Neuer's knee is also moving into.

    Also, an interesting side point, Higuain is just beginning to jump for the header he is anticipating... he is beginning to raise his knee... FWIW (NO I was wrong, he was just running)

    Finally, there is the referee in the background - and we see his is about 20 yards away from the play from other photos (using the cuts in the grass). I can't see how he can definitively tell much more than Neuer won the ball first and there was a 50/50 collision.
     
  13. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    It may be a bit garbled as there may be some translation issues, but it sounds to me from the article that the Argentinian players weren't even arguing for a PK for the contact but arguing that he handled outside of the PA. Interesting and perhap tells us something about player expectations at that level.
     
  15. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    The inability of so many posters in this forum to see the BIG PICTURE is shocking. People will nitpick the hell out of ANYTHING.

    As said by others, the World Cup final is a huge sporting EVENT. The referee plays a key role in the production of this EVENT. Compared with a typical professional match, even compared with a typical World Cup match, the entertainment value takes on a higher degree of importance at the expense of strict enforcement of the Laws of the Game.

    People need to accept that as a fact. You may not agree with it, but you need to accept it.

    It's one thing to grouse about why this tackle was yellow but should have been red, as long as you understand the reasons WHY it was yellow and not red. Don't expect the referee to officiate the World Cup Final strictly by the book. It hasn't happened like that in a long time, if ever, and I don't know if it ever will.

    Rizzoli did well, he did very well.
     
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  16. NJDevils1087

    NJDevils1087 Member

    Jun 25, 2010
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    Wigan Athletic FC
    @bluedevils The only problem I would have with that assessment is that statistically bookings and ejections are WAY up over the course of the World Cup as opposed to almost every world league bar maybe La Liga in a down year.

    Off the top of my head, I can easily think of handfuls of ridiculous bookings, both in and out of the final. Schweinsteiger's yellow in the final was nonsense. Cahill's dissent card for 2 seconds of chatter (mind you he's wearing the armband) is nothing short of ludicrous, particularly given that the official felt it perfectly acceptable to walk off having a heated discussion with Valdivia most of the way to the tunnel, and directly impacted AUS in their final match. There are plenty of others, but I think you see the point.

    If FIFA were having the final loosely officiated, given the tightness of the rest of the tournament we see consistently, we should just be adding this to the list of demonstrations of the organization's lack of integrity.

    Now, none of this is saying Rizzoli did a bad job. I would say the Schweinsteiger booking was one of his very rare mistakes, and I'm not of the camp that the Neuer-Higuain incident is in any way controversial. If anything, Garay-Kramer was much more worthy of criticism. I just think if we're going to say "Look at the big picture," we actually need to, you know, look at the big picture. And the stats are pretty damning. I will say that it certainly got better this year (massive decline in bookings and ejections), but ultimately, all 64 games are about the 22 players, not the 4 officials. And FIFA needs to recognize that.
     
  17. lemma

    lemma Member

    Jul 19, 2011
    I can accept the received wisdom that Neuer did not foul Higuan.

    Higuan did, however, probably receive a serious head injury in that collision. The collision was not a freak accident. Neuer simply carried out the leading-with-the-knee acceptable madness that has been taught to goalkeepers for too long.

    We are becoming more aware of the extent of head trauma suffered by soccer players. Lots of it comes simply from a lifetime of smashing one's head against the ball, and that is so fundamental to the game that it has to be accepted as a risk to be taken. But there is no reason to subject players to the danger that Higuan faced in that collision. It will not affect the "event" or the "spectacle" of the game.

    I would like to see, going forward, that threatening play by goalkeepers is seen for what it really is. We have done a decent job making dangerous tackles from behind to be seen for what they really are, and it is high time the same happened with goalkeepers as well.
     
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  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Completely disagree with this assessment. He was doing a running horizontal jump from a sprint with one arm extended -- go try it. The knee that matches the arm will come up as part of that natural motion. (If you don't want to try it yourself, look at how long jumpers come off the ground or basketball players making a one handed layup or dunk.)

    The point that GKs often go in with knees inappropriately and should be sanctioned is a valid point -- there are unquetionably GKs who use their knees as weapons. As referees we should absolutely be aware of GK misconduct in this area. But we also have to recognize the the biometrics (right word?) of jumping and not find intent or aggressiveness where there is none. And we also need to consider the nature of attackers challenging keeepers. We fault field players for using their foot where a head is expected and for using a head where a foot is expected. Perhaps we ought to also fault field players for challenging for balls that are too high for them to reach when they contact the GK. (Yes, I know that's not quite this play, as Higuan was trying to go through the space the GK was using in order to get to where the ball would come down enough to play it.)
     
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  19. grasskamper

    grasskamper Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Based on the current laws of the game and upon reviewing the replays and photos of the incident, I don't have much of an issue with the way Rizzolli dealt with the situation, with the exception of the re-start. Based on the recently posted article, it appears Rizzolli would change the re-start as well if he could do it over.

    I also don't disagree with Socal Lurker's preceding observations, although I would add the following. Much as we need to consider the nature of attackers challenging keepers, this particular play brings to the forefront the issue of goalkeepers' being responsible for their actions and the impact of these actions on the opponent. Thus, just because, by the nature of their physical abilities and the rights granted to them under the laws of the game (i.e. use of the hands), they can reach balls at a higher plane than their opponent(s), it does not give them the right to bowl over the opponent in their journey to reaching said lofted ball. The goalkeeper is responsible for controlling his/her body before, during and after the play.

    As an aside, personally I was rather disappointed (P'oed at several) at the number of calls that were whistled during the WC, where keepers ran into attackers on the way to a ball where the attacker was merely occupying space. Under the laws of the game, the goalkeeper does not have any special rights (I call it the "Moses parting the Red Sea") for a free and clear highway between their position and the lofted ball. If this is not the case and this right is afforded to the GK, please let me know so that I can further educate myself.

    This surely was not a Schumacher-Battiston type of situation, but I would not have had much of a reaction if Rizzolli would have called an infraction on Neuer on the play. This was marginal based on the location from where he took off, the positioning and impact of his body on Higuain and the resulting collision with the opponent. I understand that futbol is a contact sport and that collision, even violent ones, are part of the sport. Regardless, all players, including keepers, are responsible for maintaining control of their bodies to ensure that they don't endanger the physical well being of their opponents. I'm off my soapbox.
     
  20. That Cherokee

    That Cherokee Member

    Mar 11, 2014
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    This was a 50/50 collision, the keeper didn't bowl over the attacker, they simply were both going to be going to the same location. The thigh is what made the contact, not the knee. Both players spent their entire eye attention on the ball. Not to mention the attacker even after the game did not think that he was fouled. His argument during the match was that the ball was outside the area.
     
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  21. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bottom line. Its a good thing I am retired because the way some of you think the keeper should play would have gotten my body severely crunched on many occasions. When keeper can't raise he knee to protect himself if would be time to take up something else.

    Please go watch this replay over and over. Neuer is totally concentrating on the ball. He in now way shape or form makes any attempt to play to player or follow through in a manner to cause harm. It was a hard play by both players. It happens.
     
  22. mudhen

    mudhen Member

    Apr 11, 2012
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    As for the collision, I really am not of the league to question Rizzoli's decision. The elite Pro game is so fast, so hard, that it surely must take years to have the ability and CONFIDENCE to referee them. It took me ten years and 13-1500 games to get to where I consider myself a decent official in the amateur game. It goes on from there.
    What does concern me though is that I am sure to start to see behavior drawn straight from the W.C. down on the youth level. We all can agree that it flows down from the top and it pains me to think that I may well have to deal with a less coordinated, thuggish goalkeeper imitating Neuer. Sigh...
     
  23. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Does that matter in deciding a foul?

    Does that matter in deciding a foul?
     

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