Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) - Part I

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

However, if De Jong had been sent off, there would have then been nothing stopping Webb from evening it out. Probably see a dive card or two to Spain, and more likely the red given to Puyol because he's got a reason to even out the match. I think Holland at that stage of the match could have hung on for the 30-35' in better fitness at that time on 10 men.

It really is pure hindsight to claim "The Netherlands was finished no question if De Jong was dismissed." In reality the match would likely have played out in an entirely different fashion.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

what makes you think the ref would have the incentive to even things out for spain? spain would not have fouled nearly as much as soon as they were 1 man up. they wouldve dominated the midfield even more being 1 man up... it wouldve been the dutch that would have to foul more. look at spains previous games spain does not dive or play dirty unless its forced upon them

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

You are really rewarding diving that way. Don't you want people to try to stay on their feet? And if it's a foul, you can play advantage and give a yelow card afterwards. Is that really so ridiculous?

Besides, as I read here, you have 2-3 seconds to call advantage, correct?

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Actually I believe the Dutch would have done more of the other half of their game, which was not chase Spain around the park. Switzerland let Spain run onto them and gave up no goals because Spain is an easily frustrated side mentally, and for 20-25 minutes of that match resorted to teeing off from long range instead of working their chances.

Holland for me would have bunkered in and kept Spain frustrated by switching to keeping shape as priority one as opposed to going and disrupting Spain actively, knowing they could get the Spanish frustrated and hitting 30 yard hopers for 10-15-20 minutes at a time.

Spain plays the game like they're up a man anyway, 60%+ possession largely spent kicking it about back around midfield or in the defensive third and then foraying ahead to try and pick out a space now and again, so Holland letting this occur would have been the logical reaction to a De Jong red.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

This is just not true,three opponents have received red cards against Spain.
I won't go into the Holland red card, discussed enough in this thread. But the Portugal, Costa red card was a dive (Capdevilla?), and the Chile, Estrada red card too, Torres get some incidental contact, and then starts rolling around.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

not gassing up diving in any way, but lets be realistic. you cannot eliminate diving in a soccer game. just like you cant eliminate steriods in professional body building.

and as for the foul and tye yellow card afterwards, the majority of referees do not do that. dont ask me i dunno why, but they just dont. dont blame howard for following the trend...

Yes iniesta could have stayed on his feet. in reality is it much smarter to go down grab the foul and the yellow/red card? soccer is much mental as is physical. as i see it. robben went for the glory, he didnt get it, he shouldnt complain he didnt get the call afterwards.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

k torres is a diver i wont defend that pretty boy

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

so your actually arguing..that..holland..wouldve been..better off...with 10 men...really..? really? you think holland wouldve had a better chance..with only 10 men? and as for spain playing like there a man up dont you think the dutch coaching staff alreayd knew that? if it was that obcviously they wouldve went for that same tactic as swiss did wouldnt they? but then they realized germany portugal paraguay all tried that same tactic, wait for the counter attack, and they all failed. swiss got lucky and they didnt want it to rely on chance.

and as for holland being better of with 10 men against spain? come on now...

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

How you are getting that I said Holland would be better off is beyond me. I said nothing of the sort. I simply explained how I believe van Marwijk would have reacted to the sending off because it would have been the best possible mitigation of missing a player.

Obviously being down a man is not going to help them. Paraguay and Switzerland did not change their style to beat the Spanish. It is not that Portugal and Germany COULD NOT beat them by playing the way they did, it is the fact that they CHANGED THEIR STYLE when they did not need to do so.

Holland however, had played a very workmanlike, efficient tournament up to the point -- much closer in style than Switzerland than Germany for example. They did not need to deviate much to enact this plan, and could have used it to great effect.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

WEBB made not only 1 , but many judgemental errors which result in dissatisfaction in the Dutch team.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

If only the Dutch teams opinions mattered, sadly they really don't.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

One way this thread is getting a bit off track is that people are saying "diving" when they mean "embellishment." It may be an ESL-related issue.

Originally Posted by eugenelim

But that's only because the Dutch team lost and whined alot.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

"But that's only because the Dutch team lost and whined alot."

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

On the video of the break, where we are debating good no call, DGF or yellow for Puyol, two things occurred to me about Webb's position:

- the break was unexpected, he started out pretty far behind AND straight lined so there's no way he saw the arm around the waist.
- Webb must be pretty quick, he spotted them 30 yards and almost caught em

Personally I think he should have called it back and given the foul. Not DOGSO because there were two defenders there. Problem is we are discussing if there even was afoul there and he knew if he called it on a questionable foul, he'd have to toss him either DOGSO or second yellow and dind't want to do it on a qustionable foul.

On the kung-fu kick. I am pretty sure he saw it, he hit the whistle hard IMMEDIATELY, not even considering advantage, so he knew how bad it was. I believe he was taking one last chance to settle it down verbally. You know what, it worked.

Most of the other cards were for tactical fouls, not reckless fouls. I think it worked. Escalation stopped. We'll never know what he said, how loud and who heard it, but whatever it was, it seemed to stop the escalation and people who were on yellow cards seemed to settle down.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

The fact that grown men needed to be treated like school children is disgraceful.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

There were 15 cards in that match, how did that decision didn't work? Come on, I like Webb, I really do but he dug himself a big hole by not sending off and I think that caused many of those cautionable situations to pop up. He also missed things like Van Bommel stamping a Spainiard that led to a Spain yellow.

People on yellows settled because they had to. De Jong got the gift of a life time. This incident was far worse than the missed elbow by Coulibally at the start of the Slovenia match.