Here we go again. Yeah, sure, Euro teams don't give a shit about the ICC, thats why they send their B teams every year. Everyone knows about UEFA teams tactics regarding this issue, they downplay the importance of the ICC in case they lose so they can save face, which has happened quite a bit.
Never has sarcasm backfired more devastatingly. I guess I need to spell it out for you: until recently... How about all those years the Uefa Champion didn't even send a team (be it A or B), and a replacement team had to be found? How about the years the ICC wasn't even held? 1971 - Ajax declined 1973 - Ajax declined 1974 - Bayern Munich declined 1975 - not held 1977 - Liverpool declined 1978 - not held 1979 - Nottingham declined After that the Uefa teams regularly participated (thanks to Toyota), although they never took it very serious until a few years ago... Yeah, fact checking's a bitch. You come on this thread feverishly trumpeting about the ICC's glorious tradition, yet you choose to ignore parts of its history. Bottom line: Fifa is not destroying the world's most perfect tournament. The ICC was a good thing, but now it's time to move on. Which is exactly what you're doing concerning the Club World Championship, and the possibility of facing an oh-so-inferior opponent from Africa. Funny how things turn out, huh?
You really think that the woolybong wolves could beat an AC Milan reserve team? Lol fcuk sake mate sort ya head out. There are teams in the first divison that could tear them apart. and to Swissy mate, I have no problem with these new teams being allowed in, I want these teams to get better to make it a global game the fact is their not up to it yet, their only being put in so that Fifa can make some more $$$. When they can start buying some of the best players and can prove that they can hack it with the Europeans and South Americans then they may join, what goods can come out of one of these african or asian teams taking a 6 or 7 nil beating.
>>It's just as they call the champions of the MLB the World Champions. << The reason they call it the World Series is that a newspaper in NewYork at the time called "theWorld" issued a challange to the established National League and the upstart American League to see who was better over a best of seven. It was called the World Series. It was designed to sell newspapers.
Funny now that the rest of world is interested in Football all of a sudden (ie USA) and the channel everone is talking about FSW. We're supposed to drop everything and tend to these new Confederations. Why? Money? The biggest evil of all. The reason why those club failed to show up those years was because of rough play period. actually the ICC meant more in those years tahn today. Euro clubs got slammed and outplayed everytime but in todays maket with transfers. you play your own countrymen on opposite teams. I remember as a kid and my dad taking me to watch the match between Boca and Borussia M. in 77. at least this board brought back some memories. You are right it is the 21 century. 10 years ago about 90% of these posters had no idea about clubs or tournaments in S.A.. Today everyone is an expert!!
I might agree that by themselves they cannot physically stop fifa from having the tournament, but they could tottaly kill it. If they declined to send any teams to the tournament, i really doubt that European clubs would not push uefa into the same path. In regards to fifa, Uefa and Conmebol are usually on the same side with everything.
Glad we agree on something. The only way we'll know for sure is if we let them in now. Everything else is pure speculation and we end up with lengthy threads such as this one. I can't speak for Africa or Asia, but I can tell you that Mexico's teams are just about ready to issue a challenge to the established football powers. As you may or may not know, Mexico's teams already participate in the Copa Libertadores - and quite successfully I might add. In fact, the Mexican teams are amongst the best in the competition, even reaching the final in one year. Despite their performance, their "guest status" in the competition won't allow them to represent Conmebol in the ICC, even if they win the whole thing... Look, the bottom line is we've got nothing to lose. With a 16 team, two week tournament - it could be argued that playing against these opponents is a waste of time. That argument however doesn't fly with one, I repeat, one measly game. Does Fifa want to make money with this? Of course they do... Will the Euro teams eventually like this tournament because of the (most likely) huge payday? Of course they will... Everybody wins. Sepp can go for that extra cup of coffee at the Hilton, while Real Madrid can go ahead and buy Raul an additional pair of cashmere socks for Christmas. That didn't happen in 2000, and I dont expect it to happen in the future. As you can see, no team was defeated by a larger margin than two goals - not even South Melbourne. Of course you can spin these results either way; you can say the Euro and Brazilian teams didn't bother to push for another goal after a significant lead, or you can say that maybe the difference in quality is not as great as commonly assumed. Regardless, I highly doubt we'll see 7-0 blowouts...
Oh please, don't be so naive. The only reason Conmebol is running to Uefa is because they fear they might have to share their financial rewards with other confederations. Money rules the game. Do I like it? - not one bit. Is it a fact? - a resounding yes. So what's the problem with the Fifa "absorption" again? And this is exactly why we need this tournament - to create a "no excuse" sphere for discussion. I never claimed to be an expert on South American football, but I do have the ability to grasp the macroeconomics involved in this debate. You mean like player releases concerning Conmebol's never-ending WC qualifying? I hate to break it to you, Uefa is only on one side - their side.
Is it Uefa that releases players to the qualifying ?? Funny though, i always though it was the clubs !!
Ha, ha, ha. Until recently? I didn't know that you consider 1980 recently. That's a quarter of a century ago little boy. Tell me one year since the Toyota intervention that UEFA teams sent B teams (remember, again, this started 24 years ago)... What? None? Oh how surprising. Yeah, I know all about those obscure years during the seventies that the UEFA teams didn't want to play. Was it that they couldn't handle so many defeats during the sixties, or playing on the road was a little bit to rough for their taste? (1960-69: 6-4 in favor of Conmebol). Boo fucking hoo. The thing is that all this UEFA whining resulted in the Japan thing, and from that point on, nothing weird has happened... ...unless you consider weird losing to Southamerican teams. And once again, I am not opposed to this World Club Championship (or whatever they want to call it), what I don't want is for the ICC to end. Can't both co-exist? Ok, I know the answer, otherwise FIFA wouldn't want to end the ICC.
The clubs are part of Uefa through their national associations, but you're right, I probably should've worded it differently. My main point is that Europe and South America usually aren't lovey-dovey when it comes to their special interests.
The proposed FIFA format adds one game and zero extra travel to the schedules of UEFA's and CONMEBOL's respective champions. Any other proposal for a World Club Championship would be much more disruptive of the schedules of the participating teams and the whining would far exceed what we're hearing now.
Do you read anything I post? The European teams might have sent their A team since 1980 (probably for contractual reasons with sponsor Toyota), but there wasn't a whole lot of interest until the mid 90's. Do you understand? - The media, the fans, and sometimes even the clubs themselves simply did not care for the most part. The result of the ICC was usually found in the back of the newspaper, if at all... I'm European and lived in Europe most of my life. Are you sure you want to debate me on this? Don't look for me to defend the Real Madrids of the world. I can't stand them myself... If you know the answer, then stop asking stupid questions.
Swiss good job of showing the "holliness" of the Toyota Cup. Ratings/Prestige/TV Money/Bragging Rights/Chance to sell more jerseys. I can't see this being so bad... I don't see the 'tired' argument either. That's why you have reserves on teams... if you're reserves are of standard there's no reason why you can't compete in various tournaments... Again no one says you have to play or hell even show up for that matter... just to be hypothetical if Boca Juniors & AC Milan decline playing last year.... I'm sure Runners-Up Santos & Inter Milan would gladly take the money. after all with money even the devil pretends to be a saint. ALSO I ASK. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO WOULDN'T LOVE TO SEE A FEW UPSETS? Also what a great chance for the "Richer" teams to pick up some cheap and proven talent... How can you loose. Really?
Regarding the absorption of Toyota ICC: 1) It's wrong of FIFA to mess around with a tournament that was independent of them, but I guess as the so-called "world governing organization" of soccer they feel they can do anything. And if the Toyota Corporation and UEFA and CONMEBOL let them interfere--then they have no one else to blame but themselves. 2) Given how UEFA and CONMEBOL could be sanctioned by FIFA for not participating i dont see how they could realistically put a stop to it anyway 3) Personally, i would have preferred a 16 team tournament that took place every two years--but if this is the best they can do--then so be it. A Club world cup was going to happen anyway--it was just a matter of time. 4) The tournament results will most likely not be lopsided---world soccer has advanced quite a lot from the 60's and 70's 5) Mega $$$ for all parties involved will most likely quiet any opposition and make everyone happy (just think of how much money the tv rights alone could potentially bring in) 6) It has the potential (if handled correctly) to become a competition of immense soccer importance AND it would happen on a yearly basis instead of once every two or four years. 7) Qualification to the tournament is simple and straightforward---win your confederation's club championship. Always room for expansion later on...
What I find highly satisfying about the absorption is that past ICC winners will also be recognized in the future. As much as I displayed the ICC's ugly side, it still has its place in the history of club football. There are various things that can be done in Uefa and Conmebol to reduce fixture congestion. In Europe we need to ask ourselves if it wouldn't be wiser to get rid of all the worthless League Cups (FA Cup should be enough), while South America needs to be critical about the split-season format, regional championships, and the long WC qualifying.
¿What the Hell? Or even better, let's let the European & South American champions get a bye untill the semi finals of the World Cup, you apparently seem to find this 'normal', so it's all good. Holes indeed. Dumb fu...
Newsflash: We're talking about club football dingleberry. PS: Ever heard of seeding during the World Cup draw?
¿What's wrong with Colombia? It's a country full of champions. Oh the logic, the logic.....it's missing! Maybe it's hidden at the same place as those dastardly weapons of mass destruction. But wait, I'm a nice guy I'll play along. How is it different for the club champions of Europe and South America to receive a bye untill the semi final of the oh so prestigious and highly wanted world cup for clubs, as having the national team champions of Europe and South America receiving a bye untill the semi finals of the world cup? Damn, I can't do the nice guy act any longer, it's not different at all skippy.
mr magoo It really doesn't matter what I think but what happens on the field. I just think all the whining whingers on this MB are so far up themselves (about how good their teams/fa's are compared to everyone else but aren't prepared to see that put to the test on the pitch) that they are inside-out. No mate, you know bugger-all about the rest of the world and need to show some reasoned logic & ticker before I'll listen to any argument on this from you. Andy T.
Well, we'll see what happens, in the end is a money issue. Conmebol already said they don't want to lose the ICC as it is, and it's logical, they have total control over it without FIFA sticking its nose. But the Blatters, Johannsons and Leoz of the world are all the same, they go where the money is. If FIFA gets an unbelievable deal, no matter how historic the ICC is, Leoz and Johannson will bend over oh so fast it won't be even funny.