Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo As I was typing that out, I knew I had read something very similar to it before, I couldn't place where it came from. Im still not certain that its a direct Al quote, but its certainly something he WOULD say.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo The suggestion was, "if you dont like the way it is being handled, get involved." Simple enough. Keeping it as simple as possible, stops the bullsh!te nitpicking crap. I try to leave it out. I guess my solution was too simple to see, if you read it 4 times and couldn't see it.
This is so tired. I was in the section in the front row next to where to smoke bomb went off and sure ass hell didn't see who did it. I did see the English guy w/ jis can of Guinness and thought to myself what a DumbA... Come on, if you're gonna smuggle booze into to section and drink, don't make us as a group look stupid by drinking it straight from the can or in the case of someone else, using the red paper as a tube to cover it up. He should be slapped for pure stupidity as far as I'm concerned. Someone defending Tomek? Puhlease. I know him and consider him a friend but a Saint he sure the hell never will be. Tomek was right next to me when he got hauled off and I'm guessing he was hauled off because they considered he was interfering with what they were trying to do. I know him well enough that on our second trip to Columbus, I had a friend save his butt from getting arrested by Columbus's finest. He was way out of line as far as I'm concerned. We know what's allowed and what isn't and why on earth do several people scream bloody murder when they haul people off drives me looney and it screws us as a group in the long run. Apologies for the person who was mistakenly grabbed and I don't blame you for being upset about it, I sure as hell would but I do send a "Big ups" to you for recognizing that these guys were at the very least trying to do the right thing as opposed to in the past when I and a few friends saw the old SF security beat the hell out of a kid and we did issue statements on behalf of the kid to his attorneys. You wanna see good smuggling -- look for the man with the bottle of bubbly Friday night and don't be upset when it sprays.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo My appologies. In my world get involved isn't a suggestion. It's a necessity and a no brainer. The bigger question is how should people get involved. If forming a good working relationship with the entities in question and working through our mutual problems isn't getting involved properly as you so eloquently suggested, what is the proper way?
I think that you guys are foolish to be trying to do smoke bombs anyways. You've got an awesome group, one that has a pretty good relationship with stadium security, and a supportive GM. Seems to me there are just a few basic things within reason that they don't want you guys doing. So why squawk when someone does them and gets in trouble because of it?
It's pretty sad when a revs fan has to come and be the voice of reason for some Fire fans. Thanks maxim. Now go fuck off. And I mean that in the warmest way.
Stranger from afar here...first off despite all of the apparent problems with security you guys looked and sounded kick ass on Sunday. Good job. Here in Portland at the end of the season we had a similar problem related to "smoke" (For some reason nothing seems to freak out security more than pyro ). Anyhow we score against our rivals (Seattle) all hell breaks loose in Section 107 and someone lights off a couple of celebratory smoke bombs. At the same time about 20 or so folks have lept on top of the "dugout" to celebrate which is about a 20 foot fall to field level from section 107. Well this security guard goes apes hit at the sight of smoke and charges into the section with an extinguisher (never mind that an extinguisher would do nothing to a smoke bomb but hey what the heck). He just charged in and started spraying indiscriminately. He nailed several guys and girls smack dab in the chest/face and the folks who were celebrating on the dug out were nailed from behind by the extinguisher and almost took an ender off the wall. One of our supporters got rather upset at being nailed in the face with an extinguisher and tried to go after the security guard in question who ran for his life. This set off another whole chain of events with security. Needless to say it was an ugly seen all around. The next week the Timbers Army and management had a "come to Jesus meeting". You are never going to see completely eye to eye with security and management on these things. Our goals are just different. But you can come to an understanding. We agreed to try to stop the smoke but with the understanding that there were no promises. They agreed to have the particular security goon re-assigned and to assign the same security personnel, if possible, to the section so we get to know each other. That has helped alot because we are a hell of a lot less scary to some typically close-minded security goon once they get to know us. We also got them to agree that security extinguishers as an enforcement tool in the section were no longer such a good idea
Mr. Theburden comments... But I don't really see why a can of smoke is dangerous or poses a threat to anyone unless you count a terrible smell as being a dangerous threat. I'm guessing, and it's just a guess, that from a short distance you can't tell whether the smoke is coming from a smoke can or flare. Smoke cans aren't as bad as flares. Again, just a guess....security guard probably figured where there's smoke, there's fire?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo 1. It is dumb "Barrington" logic 2. I never said you didnt work hard, or do good things for Section 8. Nor, that you were unqualified. 3. I live in CA, not IL, so helping with event planning or attending meetings is tough for me. 4. Unless one is a BS freak and reads EVERY thread, its difficult to know when/where all of your meetings are. 5. Such foul language will get you a yellow card 6. Give up the martyr crap, its very unbecoming a leader. 7. Quote HalaMadrid "Criticise the system and how crap like this is resolved if you want, but get involved and try to help" - this is exactly what I suggested to those who didnt like what was going on. I followed that by saying, stop whining about it if you dont get involved.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo I agree that its a necessity, but most here don't. They seem to prefer whining. As far as how to get involved, well, we all know that right now Liam, Coz, and Marcin are the go-betweens. Contact them, ask when the next meeting is, and go to that meeting. If you can't be there, send a friend. If that doesn't work, send an email or make a phone call to those persons and make sure your voice is heard. Thats the simplest way.
Hey I am in absolute and full admiration of your fans. Although I'm hoping you all go home very unhappy on friday.
Pmurff. No worries. You are a lawyer too? Poor soul. There is a lot of it going around. Vortex has some good thoughts and has really got people talking. Good for him. For some reason Liam really has it in for me but, putting that aside, I am grateful for all the time he has put in. The same goes for Coz, Marcin, Miruk, Tomek and others. I know it is often a thankless task. I think we have good leadership and the fact that jjayg, willydonc, myself and others bring infants and small children into Section 8 all the time shows how safe it is. It is NOT a security risk, although I understand the need to keep an eye on such a passionate group of people. I suggest that security lighten up a little bit and give warnings. If people persist with smoke bombs after a warning then toss them. A little tolerance will go a long way. I am willing to drag an old work bench (the only artifact from south side Flanniganiana that did not break) to the game so the leaders can stand and lead us and not defile the exotic Australian chairs. But I need clearance. Next year, can we get a pulpit, or something like it, and smoke-making machine like we had back in 2000? That might be a middle groud that works. I know Peter has almost no latitude with security but I think he also knows we will follow his direction because he is so popular and has the best interests of the club at heart.
1.as a useful distinction between a reasonable reaction and an overreaction, please compare Thomas Flannigan's posts with those of VortexUnited. 2. telling people to "get involved" or "stop complaining" is just a lame attempt to avoid adressing their argument. it's an invalid arguing tactic that you can learn about in any logic 101 course. Just cuz I don't feel like commiting myself to the thankless tasks involved in organizing a supporters group, doesn't impact one iota the validity of any criticism or argument I may present. So instead of telling people to offer solutions, get involved, or just shut up, when a fan expresses disgruntlement their actual arguments should be addressed, As a corrollary to this, I find it decidedly disappointing, though not surprising, that one of the major organizers of the group would say he doesn't give a *#*#*#*# about any complaints from people not involved to the extent he is. 99% of the fans aren't, and shouldn't have to be to have their voices heard. 3. some people don't give a crap about the principle behind our civil liberties and some do. I personally think that anyone who shrugs off the increasingly frequent infringements upon those liberties as appropriate in "their building" or when the situation warrants according to some supposed font of authority, well, those people, to me, are burgeoning fascists in the mold of Adolph Eichman - hows THAT for an overreaction? More soberly, I think there are people, Flan. seems like one of them, who are more sensitive to the sting of falling liberty, and to see people call them jackasses for decrying such violations of basic human dignity fills me with sadness. I find myself consistently mildly pissed off that I live in a nation that touts itself as the land of liberty while a handful of corporations run the government to the detriment of every average citizen, and their minions in the federal government work night and day to systematically dismantle the bill of rights. SO, when a seemingly minor infringement on a personal freedom happens right in front of me, I am prone to react, as Thomas did, with passion. To then be told to shut the *#*#*#*# up, well, it's obvious to me who ACTUALLY overreacted. 4. On that note, Coz, I wanted to ask if you think that Moterrey is spying on our message board, or if you think that Thomas's comments will incite people to have a less cooperative attitude toward security and your efforts with them. If the former, they're a pathetic bunch of loonies, if the latter, instead of shouting down the dissent, you should be presenting a better case for your position. In both cases, however, "shut the *#*#*#*# up" is an inappropriate response. This is a recurring problem - new people come to the group, or someone encounters something new to them, they respond with perfectly reasonable outrage and questions, and the people "in the know" out of fatigue, exasperation, or just plain bloody-mindedness, respond as if its none of anybody's business to ask the questions in the first place, let alone get some answers beyond vague "we're working so hard" platitudes. I don't do *#*#*#*# for the group anymore, I'll readily admit that, but I still attend matches and lend my voice to the team and therefore I have a reaonable interest in what's going on. I'll be damned if I'll let anyone deny me the right to get pissed and ask questions about that. 5. I don't know what I find more appalling - the fact that there are cameras everywhere we go now, or the fact that noone seems to give a *#*#*#*#. VortexUnited got that much right - Big Brother is watching all of us, why aren't more of you pissed off? m
The real solution to this problem is more communication within Section 8. Those of you 'in the know' need an easy way to communicate to a majority of Section 8. A consistent and easy way to do it. BigSoccer.com isn't it. A little more organization on our part will go a long way.
To me one of the greatest ironies is we have a control room that can do quick replays of an English visitor holding a can of beer, me belching, or Coz adjusting his drums, but Brian Hall can still overrule the AR with an obvious bad call that gave DC United a corner kick. Section 8 went nuts as did C.J. Brown and other Fire reserves who saw it right in front of them. Instant replay technology could be used to assure that the game is called on the level. Instead, we have high-resolution close-ups of Tomek trying to argue that the English guy should not be ejected for saying: "is there anything else?" You can't stop technology and with Big Brother in skyboxes at the Eyesore by the Lakeshore, the question really is: Will the power be used to keep the peace or to stamp out dissent and tiny infractions from fans in a city that has forgotten what it feels like to be a winner?
Tom: I know you are serious, and I do not mean to make light of things. However, one issue is that security in these places have a difficult job. I agree security needs to lighten up. But then again, imagine if you gove a warning, and that person sets off a second smoke bomb, injjuring someone -- wouldn't your law practice love the opportunity to sue the city? Yes, I agree there are too many killjoys out there (I just moved out of NYC, where killjoy number 1 is mayor). But sometimes, occasionally, the killjoys have a point. Anyway, my office is accross the street from yours -- very nicely appointed.
Welcome to the discussion Anthony. Since you are in the Loop I hope we can have lunch soon. I would never take a case that sued the Park District over a smoke bomb injury. Very weak case. I don't file bogus cases. I think a stern warning works better than what we had yesterday. You can always bag your prey if the warning does not work. We were not at all near a dangerous situation with the stinky smoke bomb in our midst.
I was being facetious about the smoke bomb case (I personally think that plaintiff stupidity should be an absolute defense in our civil system). Anyway, the fear with soccer security is that the crowd will get out of control. One problem is that in other US sports, the crowd is "herded" -- namely we are told when to sit, stand, make noise, etc. In soccer (along with some specific team fans in other sports like the NY Jets or NY Islanders), the fans have a tendency to be spontaneous. That scares the security a little, given that they hear about "soccer riots" in strange foreign lands. Then occasionally, soccer crowds even here get carried away. The crowd at Mexico -- Uruguay came close to that line (though as the stadium is still standing, I would say they did not cross over it).
You know, I've deleted too many responses to this (including one where I played the martyr card, ouch) that were just too long and self-serving, so I'll just give you short and self-serving. Tom's comments trivialized a lot of hard work that myself and others have put in, and showed an abject lack of faith or trust in our abilities to solve these problems. I really think he's been around long enough and knows me well enough to know better unless he was just grandstanding about a bunch of other bullsh!t (Daley's machine, the erosion of freedom in America, the conspiracy to keep Razov off the WC02 roster, etc.). It hit me close to home, and it pissed me off. Later, COZ
The guy drank the Guinness straight from the can, what an idiot. He deserved to get caught, not thrown out but caught. As an underage college student I know I could have done a lot better. The problem is that security's actions have fostered an environment of fear instead of respect; maybe they should read their Machiavelli. Do security guards hold the same powers as policemen, when the *#*#*#*# did they get handcuffs and are they allowed to use them at will? How have handcuffs been used in section 8? Constant communication with Peter Wilt and the stadium people is key to improving how things are. But communication within the group between and before games can make things better. A clearer understanding of stadium policies and plans for breaking them should be discussed i.e. having one person take the fall for the smoke bomb. A united section 8 could solve problems that arise from security incursions. Honestly I don't see this happening without me there, you guys should really fly me out. It would take setting up regular meetings, maybe monthly, with Security and people from the Fire. Then having a section 8 meeting at the tailgate describing how the meeting with security went and talking about what is going to happen at today’s game and what might happen, special celebrations or chants. Also make it clear at all times what is acceptable behavior how to handle security and fans that have temporarily lost their minds within the section, make sure everyone in the section knows whats up.
Dear Andrew, ILm sorry. YouLre a smart kid and you continuously prove it by thinking on your feet. From what I can tell, your actions were exemplory. Dear Jason, Coz, Liam and others, thanks for doing your best... not just working things out with security, but also trying to reason with big soccer demagogues. Dear Everyone who was arguing with Jason and Coz, a little life advice -- knee-jerk agruments about the any amendment below number 3 is not a sign of superior intelligence... instead itLs usually a good way to instantaneously discredit yourself. thanks for your time, Flynn
Let me offer an outsiders point-of-view. Unfortunately both sides of the arguments posted here are correct. Those not obeying the SF edicts in our initial season at SF are complicating the relationship between S8 and stadium managment On the other hand, security is obviously over-reacting over minor incidents and is doing their share of poisoning the well. If I brought my boys to a game, I certainly would not sit in S8 for this reason alone. As this is a publicly-owned facility, I would suggest going to the organization that controls it, the Chicago Park District. They have a board that holds regularly scheduled meetings. Residents of the city have a right to be heard by them. Try to get on one of their meetings agendas. If you are successful, arrive en masse and have a spokesperson explain the situation. Come armed with facts (i.e., the law regarding use of handcuffs by private security companies), pictures, etc. and no hysteria. Make sure you send out a news release to the media ahead of time. Those of you that live in the city, meet with your alderman. And there's always the "I'm Spartacus" tactic of everyone accepting collective blame for an incident (see WTTW-TV's production of Bleacher Bums) and forcing security to take away everyone in the section. Or just lock your arms so they can't get in in the first place. Anyway, I don't know if how I'm going to be able to watch the action on the field Friday if I'm alway looking at S8 with binoculars to see what is happening there.
You're damn right. But aside from this, the various email lists, and verbal communication in and around Fire events, I don't know what else we can do in the way of communications, short of buying tv time on English, Spanish, and Polish-language television. It's a work in progress.
It's important to remember, too, that short of a full-time supporters' liason to the club, we don't have anyone who can devote their full energies at any given time on any day of the week in emergency situations to resolve issues like this. It's unfortunate but it is what it is. The fact is, for the most part, we're gonna have to grin and bear it until the offseason when more meaningful and productive meetings and discussions can be held. Sucks, but not everyone (least of all those on the stadium management side) has the ability to drop everything and meet for 2 days nonstop before Friday to resolve this stuff once and for all.
Fan produced newsletter's, fact sheets and zines are produced by supporter groups all over the world. While I think that email lists and this site are pretty good at spreading the word and organizing and communicating, how hard would it be to run a quick two sided "We Are Section 8" type flier to pass out in the section at game day. Something which stresses why we do what we do, what to do and what not to do in section 8..It would reach the non internet addicted and newcomers. Even just a quick list of expectations and rules in English , Polish and Spanish would be good. If nothing else it would show that we as fans can be proactive and not just react to security.