Fale Arrest, Civil Rights and Section 8

Discussion in 'Chicago Fire' started by Thomas Flannigan, Nov 9, 2003.

  1. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    You don't get too many days like this in Chicago. Clear weather, good crowd, great team, and a lively Section 8 that continues to draw praise from TV viewers all over the U.S. If soccer has a future in the U.S. you can start with Chicago. But we still get Alderman Solis's finest to rain on our parade, to kick their minimum number of people out of Section 8, killing fan atmosphere at a critical part of the game. I refer to the security company that is rumored to have ties to Alderman Solis.
    Security is good. You need it any public event, even a very safe situation like a Chicago Fire game. But I don't think we are getting it at Soldier Field.
    The false arrest I am referring to is a civil wrong, a tort, not a criminal act. So it is something that does not involve breaking a law. But I think in a free society you are not supposed to drag innocent fans out of a stadium without reason, just because someone-not them- set off a flare as part of an historic celebration.
    I am interested in comments from people who saw the (4?) people dragged out of Section 8. I believe 3 returned to the cheers of the crowd. I did not see Tomek return.
    I am interested if you think things are getting a little heavy in Section 8, or am I misreading the security situation.
  2. genpabloescobar

    Feb 17, 2002
    As a outside observer, I think that in this case that Section Eight has to police themselves and point out who the guilty party/ies is to security so the innocent people don't get removed.

    I know you guys want pyro.

    I know you guys don't want to narc fellow fans.

    I understand both of those points clearly.

    But SF couldn't be more clearer in that pyrotechnics are verboten. I know that it was discussed in threads when the Fire were moving back to SF that the new SF had a security and surveillance system that was more casino eye-in-the skyesque than ever before. I don't know how close the people who were pinched were to the people who actually set it off. It may have been a good faith error. It may be that the eye-in-the-sky stuff is/was b.s.

    And until there are a few more games under the belt, yeah, you're gonna have to figure out how to relate with security and security is gonna have to figure out how to relate to you. It happened with Garcia in the original OSF and it happened in Naperville.
  3. GoFireGo

    GoFireGo New Member

    Apr 25, 2002
    It really did seem as if the security just grabbed a few people and marched them off. One gentleman appeared to go voluntarily and it seemed alright but next thing I know 3-4 other guys are being kicked out. Id like to hear their story.
  4. genpabloescobar

    Feb 17, 2002
    Well, if that's the case, and I'm not doubting you, I just wasn't there, then yeah, that's crappy.

    I guess they felt they had to do *something*.
  5. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    for someone who wasn't there, what were the circumstances surrounding the event?

    i was there in section 8 a few weeks back at soldier field enjoying the colorado match with some friends who are fire fans and section 8 hardcores and i got a kick out of watching the few pimple-faced security guards who we just looking for reasons to toss people out of the place. it is as if they have nothing better to do and wanna show that despite being incredible losers in red parkas they can kick you out of a stadium.
  6. nicodemus

    nicodemus Member+

    Sep 3, 2001
    Cidade Mágica
    PAOK Saloniki
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stadium security across the country does its best to kill a good time. It isn't like we're in a situation where there are tens of thousands of fans of both teams that are at each others throats. We're talking about a 75% empty stadium in which probably 97% (at least) of those in attendance are Fire fans. :rolleyes:
  7. nyrmetros

    nyrmetros Member

    Feb 7, 2004
    So the new Soldier Field suckurity folks are just as bad as the NJSEA Suckurity Nazis ?
  8. theburden

    theburden Member

    Jul 11, 2002
    MDSC head brewer
    Okay here is my story. (I had on BDU's and a black hooded sweatshirt)

    Ante scored the second goal and a can of orange smoke was set off. Not surprisingly security came down because smoke=terrorism, and the next logical step is a riot with thousands of casualties.

    After the smoke cleared they quickly forgot about the fact that there was a can of smoke and saw that Steve, the fine English gentleman, had a can of Guinness. They asked him where the can came from and he played dumb. They asked for it and he gave it up. After that he said something to the effect of, "Is there anything else wrong?" The Security guy didn't think it was funny and began to haul him out. The rest of section 8 began to react like they do anytime someone is kicked out.

    Someone either near me, behind me, or to my left, threw something, I think it was a plastic bottle, at the security supervisor. They then forgot about Steve (He got away when they weren't paying attention) and the guy marched up to me and drug me out of from where I was standing. A few people were pulling at me from three or four directions at a time. That includes Tomek. Tomek was screaming at the main guy and pulling on me. I had no idea what was going on because I didn't see the main guy get hit with anything. I was coughing from the smoke and the fact that I have been sick for a few weeks now. He led me out of Section 8 in that cop hold where they bend your wrist behind your back so you can't do anything. He wouldn't tell me why he was pulling me out until I got to the top and then he proceeded to scream at me about how I know exactly what I did and why I was there. Well, I never did anything so I just cooperated. He handcuffed me and led me and Tomek down to their holding cells. I handed over my ID and sat in the cell while Tomek hilariously taunted the security personnel calling them *#*#*#*#*#*#*# and various other things that I didn't understand that were in Polish.

    Then the entertaining part started.

    The main guy who drug me out exchanged some verbal quips with Tomek and then filled out some paper work. About 5 min later an older guy who was some kind of boss came in and they had a little conference. He said, "The guy's father said he didn't throw anything and his buddy is a Chicago cop. I think we may have the wrong guy."

    I sat in the cell and they left the holding room. Then one by one they came in and looked at what I was wearing. I could tell they were looking at a video.

    Eventually they came back, gave me my ID, and walked me out. Craig (Chicago cop), my dad, and my brother were waiting for me. They said after they watched the video that they had the wrong person and said it was an "honest mistake."

    We got escorted back to Section 8 but by that time the game was basically over. There was a warm cheer when I got back and we won.

    Later the guy apologized kind of in a half ass way which I guess was nice but didn't leave me feeling warm inside. He didn't have to say anything at all I guess but, whatever.

    I didn't get the *#*#*#*# kicked out of me like what I'm sure would have happened with Garcia. He wanted to charge me with battery for something I didn't do, but I guess the fact that he forcefully ejected me doesn't really matter.

    It could have been worse but I think the fact that I cooperated the whole time made a big difference. And If they didn't have a tape and my cop friend insist that they review it I could have been booked for battery.

    I think I'll cut my losses and call it even at this point.
  9. nyrmetros

    nyrmetros Member

    Feb 7, 2004
    Drink some Newcastle Brown Ale. You'll feel better in the morning. After that you're on your own :)
  10. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo

    Thanks Theburden. You left peacefully, as did all of the Chicago Seven, including Tomek.
    Every 100 years or so a Chicago team, not a soccer team, actually wins something. So Mayor Reinsdorf and his assistant, Mr. Daley, bring cold blankets and civil rights violations to help us celebrate Chicago culture. Thanks for your help in this very rare celebration.
    Today was an outrage. It was an outrage. People in Iran can cheer at football games. Why can't Americans?
  11. NotAbbott

    NotAbbott Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    My Own Little World
    Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo

    Tom, I say this as a friend. Shut the f*** up. You're doing absolutely nothing to actually help the situation by posting this sort of inflammatory bullsh!t. Security was doing their job. Not doing a great job, sure, but pyrotechnics are not allowed in their building, and make no mistake, it's their building. We play by their rules, or we don't play. There is no other alternative. The only chance we have to get them to let us "get away" with the kind of things we do is to avoid needless confrontation and antagonism, and this sort of invective does exactly the opposite.

  12. Es Brennt

    Es Brennt Member+

    Feb 25, 2003
    Shermer, Illinois
    Chicago Fire
    Coz, you're way off here. Just cuz you seem to be cozy with the front office and all, don't go telling others in sec 8 how to react to overzealous security and their antics. Today WAS an outrage. Security needs to chill. Period. They dragged people out for no good reason. This is supposed to be America, land of the free, right? But so often people are ready to give up their rights as a human being, as a sports fan, as a yahoo, just cuz somebody with more capital says they make the rules. F that. The NSF security needs to relax and realize that Fire Fans are fun, they are boisterous, they are hilarious. So often in large gatherings of people there is an undercurrent of aggression and stupidity, for the most part I don't see that in Sec 8. That's awsome. We have fun , we are loud, we like to express our fanaticism through expletives , songs, streamers and maybe a few smoke bombs...is that so wrong? Instead of making nice on these boards and kissing security ass, we should be telling folks to stick together and not let them kick individuals out for undue reasons. Close the aisles, make some noise. Stick together.
    There was nothing done in section 8 today that warranted ANY security intervention.
    Have fun , be loud, don't let some corporation that doesn't give a toss about the sport you love tell you how THEY want you to behave. They don't care , they don't like us and they don't get it, F them!

    umm,anyway, had a great time today and uh... Go Fire!

    ....and NYRMetros stay off our boards you puke , you have no business here.
  13. feuerfex

    feuerfex Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo

    Uhm, Coz. The security freaks didn't drag those people out because of the pyro.

    They just decided to drag out whoever was in the neighborhood of the area where they thought a bottle had come from. That's BS. If they don't know what the F is going on, they shouldn't harass innocent people. I'm not sure it's in their job description to just drag three or four people out during the match. If it is I stand corrected. If not, then they aren't "just doing their job." And I don't think it unreasonable to hold them accountable for their job performance (or lack thereof).
  14. NotAbbott

    NotAbbott Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    My Own Little World
    You're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying don't be critical, but Tom, IMHO, went too far. There are better ways to deal with these problems. It's not a matter of "coziness," but the more anti-security BS that builds up, the less leverage myself and others who actually try to deal with these people are going to have, because we're only going to validate their opinion that we're a bunch of animals who can't see reason.

    And by "can't see reason," I mean this insistence that they should look the other way when someone in Section 8 does something that would get them thrown out anywhere else in the stadium (throwing a bottle, lighting a smoke bomb) simply because we're so darn lovable. Have you ever actually listened to the announcements of all the things you're not supposed to be able to do in Soldier Field, and thought about how many of them we've convinced the Powers that Be to let us do?

    If we, as a section, insist on doing things that we *know* the management and security has a serious problem with (and I don't know all the details of this bottle-throwing incident, but I'm hard-pressed to imagine there's a way to spin that as "harmless Section 8 fun"), we lose the moral high ground for any kind of outrage.

    End rant. For now.

  15. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Coz, you know I think the world of you, but friends can disagree.
    This is not "their" house. We paid for it. We paid for it with high taxes, while Reinsdorf pays no tax for the Tax Shelter on 35th Street.
    I am all in favor of abiding by the rules, even if I don't agree with them. I have seen lots of security situations at football games, rock concerts, all kinds of events, all over the world. Real police know how to deal with situations without arresting innocent people.
    If you ejected everyone at a Bears game who was consuming smuggled alcohol you would need the National Guard to pull it off. A warning usually suffices. If the bounder persists, then you toss him. Unless you really want another notch on your belt and more, lots more, overtime pay.
    The sign which lists banned activities should really be sent to the National Security Agency for decryptification. It is possible someone would not know what is banned and what is not. Especially if you are a foreigner. The English guy was treated like dirt, paraded in front of the crowd with his hands tied behind his back, for what? Drinking a beer that did not cost 6 dollars? A warning would have done the trick, which is what has usually been the protocol at Soldier Field or any other civilized venue. This is how Bears fans are treated.
    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming, where an overweight "peace" officer disguised as a Fire fan finally gets a chance to bust all the people in the radius of a fan drinking a beer....
  16. FairWeatherFan

    Sep 9, 2002
    Chicago Fire
    Hey Coz,

    (this is intended to be an informative, not insulting question) -- Exactly how much leverage do you have when you work with the front office and security people. Or, what can the combined efforts of Sec. 8 reps like you along with Fire management do to work with security? Do you guys sit down and have meetings to discuss problems, compromises, etc.?

    It seems like the logical thing to do (as someone stated above) is to police ourselves. Simply put-- don´t throw bottles or let the guy next to you throw a bottle at security. If someone wants to light a smoke bomb, then fine, but they have to be willing to step up and say it was them if innocent people start getting pulled while they sit back in anonymous safety.

    If you break the rules, of course security is going to pull 3 or 4 people. I would bet it actually is in the training manual if not the job description. If the crowd is lighting smoke bombs (in a post 9/11 world, trite as that may sound), security w¡ll freak out. Leave personal emotions or comments like "well security is stupid," aside. They will pull 3 people as examples, just as a show of force to prove to the crowd that they are still in control.

    that said, Coz, is there any way you or someone else could bring up Andrew´s story as an example of why pulling innocent people form the crowd is wrong (if only on moral grounds)?

  17. Wolves1935

    Wolves1935 New Member

    Jan 28, 2002
    Prospect Heights
    If they have video.....

    why be in such a rush to pull innocent people out of the crowd? Did Tom get a refund for missing the game because of "an innocent mistake". I don't think it's an innocent mistake when you have video at your disposal to nab the guilty party.

    Stadium Management is a joke all the way around. Nit picky as it may be, they have special entrances for Club Level, but no one is bright enough to unlock the doors until 30 minutes AFTER doors open.

    Just another fine example of how the Fire are seen as second rate citizens. And before anyone starts with the "well the Bears paid for it" BS, we pay rent so treat us ATLEAST fair.
  18. heybeerman

    heybeerman Member

    Aug 2, 2001
    Chicago Burbs
    Chicago Fire
    I saw the whole thing and it appeared to me, that security nabbed the wrong guy, but they were down there and they wanted a head. That, I think is wrong. Since they have cameras, maybe they ought to figure out who they want before they go randomly pulling people.

    Then Tomek had words and the security guy said "Take him too". The attitude here being "We're in charge and don't mess with us".

    From a security aspect they need to keep order. If they feel things are getting unruly, they will start pulling people to do that. Thank God Colin was behaving.
  19. NotAbbott

    NotAbbott Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    My Own Little World
    As it was happening, I was trying to figure out how to address the problem. Because the way I see it, there are two things that need to be dealt with. First, tossing the wrong guy. What I think was happening was that the security/management people in the "control center" may have been relaying a description via radio. To me, it looked like they kept pulling people who fit a similar description. So I don't agree with the presumption that they're just going down to get "somebody." They have a target in mind, it's just that they don't seem to be very good at identifying them. This is what needs to be addressed.

    The fact that they've got the cameras rolling could help us in this regard, but as fans, we have no grounds to demand to see the video evidence. The team, on the other hand, might be able to make that request, and I'd like to bring that up with them.

    Second, there's tossing people for giving them attitude. None of us think that's constructive, and it's clearly the root of Steve and Tomek getting yanked. That may be a tougher nut to crack, but again, it's certainly something that can be put on the table, because it's not necessarily consistent with what the head of security set forth as what he wanted to do at the outset.

    So yeah, we've got the channels of communication to bring these things up, but it's got to be addressed in the spirit of cooperation otherwise the situation is only going to get worse. The sad thing is that I think some people would like that.

    And Tom, the politics of how they got here and who paid for what is immaterial at this point. They're here, and they run the show, and we have to deal with it as well as we can.

  20. FairWeatherFan

    Sep 9, 2002
    Chicago Fire
    Don´t play innocent Beer! He was sitting at the game. That´s battery right there! We have tapes.... Tapes I tell you!
  21. A Fair and Unbiased Retelling of the Events of November 9th, 2003.

    A witness in very close proximity to the events of Nov. 9th, or Attack of the Hungry Hungry Hippos, relates the following account.

    After Razov's goal, which put the game and DC's post season hopes out of reach, a huge celebration erupted throughout Soldier Field. In Section 8 a terrorist(?) ignited a smoke bomb of appropriate hue. A few moments later, as those proximate to the smoke canister shuffled to cover mouths with scarves and bandanas, Pinkerton, excuse me, Monterrey entered Section 8 to intervene as smoke bombs of any sort are prohibited. This was expected by most and was certainly justified.
    However, the manner in which Monterrey dealt with the crowd was neither.

    The anonymous witness reporting this incident was cast roughly into a handrail by the forward most security guard with no warning beyond a curt "Excuse me." While searching for the smokey bandit, Monterrey personel were distracted by a fan consuming an outside beverage. After a brief exchange, the possessor was physically subdued, as warranted by his cooperative actions.

    A projectile launched by an anonymous Friend of Liberty, struck one of the guards as they attempted to lead the possessor of said reasonably priced beverage from the stands. All involved officers appeared to release their captive, and swarmed into the stands in a desperate search for the culprit. With no evidence or witness reports with which to identify their assailant, Monterrey forces selected, at random, a fan who requests to be known only as "Mr. Orange."

    In the following minutes, three (3)other fans were removed - one for defending the innocence of "Mr. Orange" with Polish expletives. The others were retieved several moments later. Monterrey forces again entered Section 8 and removed two (2) more violators. The charges have not yet been identified by Monterrey, though speculation points to Preemptive Arrest for the Future Lighting of Pyrotechnics as identified by those three creepy bald people in "Minority Report."

    Signed, this November 10th, 2003
    -Benny, official historian, MDSC
  22. HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid Member

    Apr 9, 1999
    Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo


    Monterrey Security has been all kinds of cooperative in resolving issues, more so by far than Garcia before them. In the past at SF, fans would simply disappear duing the game never to be seen again essentially. Here we have good open lines of dialogue and a willingness to cooperate.

    Let's not F it up by posting whatever comes in our heads. It was very unfortunate what happened Sunday, but apologies were made, hands were shaken, and we'll move on. And when did that ever happen with Garcia...or even the folks in Naperville?
  23. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Every law enforcement agency in the world is confronted with situations where an infraction has occurred but they don't know who did it. There are 2 broad courses of action:
    1. Investigate the transgression while keeping an eye on the scene to assure that it is not repeated;
    2. Arrest a couple of people who were close to the event whether there is any evidence that they committed the crime or not.
    I think there is a big difference between 1 and 2 and the difference really starts with The Enlightenment and the American Revolution. The U.S. Constitution forbids alternative 2 but it is favored in police states.
    What irks me is how willing some people are to surrender their personal freedoms, especially in the wake of You Know What, where all kinds of excesses are justified in the name of "security". (I don't mean you, Coz, as you and I have discussed such matters as friends). The situation is getting worse in what used to be a nation where freedom rang. At the WWC final German fans were forbidden from displaying a German flag. At the consolation match Mia Hamm's relatives were told to stop displaying a pro-Mia banner. I don't care if stadium "officials" wrote the policy; they are subject to the U.S. Constitution like everyone else.
    I am repeating myself from previous threads but I have sat through enough misdemeanor court calls to see that a lot of the arrests stimulated by security officers seem to be a way to get overtime pay, because the case keeps getting continued and the meter is running. It also justifies a huge staff of "security" at game time. If you go 4 or 5 games without any arrests reasonable people might question the need for so many "police".
    I don't know enough about Monterey to know if that is the case with this outfit, but I hope some of the people criticizing me read the articles in the Tribune when the security contract was awarded. My complaints are mild in comparison.
  24. genpabloescobar

    Feb 17, 2002

    Whereas I don't disagree with many of your political stances, it still seems to me that this never would've been an issue if someone didn't light the smoke bomb in the first place. If no one lit the prohibited device, the security guard would never have come looking for it, the smuggled can of Guiness never would've been found, the bottle never would have been thrown at the security guard. And it probably would not have been an extended issue if somebody didn't throw a bottle at a security guard.

    You can throw around the constitution all you want, but the fact is that you are on their property, and they reserve the right to not allow smoke bombs and to restrict bringing in food or beverage from the outside. And I also guarantee that if you throw a bottle at any authority figure, be it a judge, police officer, bar bouncer, or stadium security guard, that they are going to take action.

    I'm not defending how security reacted, or overreacted as it may be. And you can argue that the rules against smoke bombs and smuggling your own beer are dumb, and that's fine. But they are the rules.
  25. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    A very thoughtful post from pabloescobar. Flares are allowed at games all over the world, including nations like Holland and Sweden that have much lower crime rates than the U.S. Here they are banned in most venues. I don't agree with it but I think people should abide by this rule, as well as the rule against bringing in cans of beer. I object to how security handles such violations in Chicago.
    At the Honduras qualifier in RFK, a guy 3 feet from me set off a smokebomb. A security guard with a headset was there in about 2 minutes to see that it was out. He told the people around me: "Do it again and you are out". That was the last smoke bomb I saw in RFK.
    At the Costa Rica qualifier in Kansas City, someone lit a flare about 3 rows in front of me. (Jack Edwards praised it on national TV by the way)Security was there but could not determine who had done it. They moved to the side and kept a watch and it was not repeated.
    I have no control of what people do around me but I would rather not be arrested just because someone breaks the rule close to me. That is what happened yesterday.
    Please keep in mind that Miruk and I believe Tomek were tossed at the first game at the new Soldier Field, and there was no smoke bomb or can of beer involved there. Many people, not just me, are angry about Monterey's treatment of Fire fans and the complaints are not confined to Section 8.
    If we win Friday it is on to the Home Depot Center, where banners are banned. When I was in Iran 6 years ago I watched a qualifier on TV between Iran and Quatar. The fans for both countries displayed flags and banners. You can display flags in Iran but not the U.S.? I thought we were the free country!

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