Fact: Jones Did Not Dive

I would've agreed with you. I saw a difference between simulation and diving. Diving, from my viewpoint, was embellishing or exaggerating to get a call. But it was said earlier that Diving and Simulation are the same thing. And FIFA says, according to those that call it diving, that simulation is pretending to be fouled. So if a person is fouled they can't pretend to be fouled...but I may have to check with theGeo on the definition of pretend.

 

That is correct. That is a statement about terminology, not ethics.

No, that's not what I said. I said (and I'm paraphrasing from memory, as I won't bother to look up the post) if a player has had their speed, balance, rhythm messed up by the trip, then they should go down. That isn't a dive, by the definition above, and by the terms defined in my original post. That is embellishment. You don't embellish on just any trip, but one where the opposing player has messed up your ability and opportunity to continue by doing something against the rules. Said another way, the opposing player's professional foul should not be rewarded at your expense.

I think this position is both ethical and consistent with the spirit of the game. It isn't what's wrong with football. Diving when untouched and going down at the slightest touch in the penalty area are what's wrong with football. See: Cristiano Ronaldo.

You are trying to have it both ways by attempting to make "dive" mean two completely different things. Sorry, but homey no play that!

Now, as for the topic of this thread:

Did Jones dive? No!

Did he embellish? I don't know. Only he knows. It looked like he did, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Should he have embellished? I don't know, but my guess is yes.

 

I am just going by what the people who said it was diving said, as I explained in the previous post. Feel free to re-read the thread and you will see where I was corrected that simulation and diving is the same thing. And you will also see me requesting the full definition of simulation beyond the stated "pretending to be fouled".

You mean beyond the fact that it was requested by those that side with you? Yes, I know you oversold the football clip and undersold the soccer clip. Well played. But calling Hiroshima a 'tiny explosion' doesn't really influence what really happened. The same goes for you...the clips are what they are. They are there for people to view and make their own decision.

Oddly enough it is odd that people use the fact Jones took two steps after the contact as proof that it was a very light hit. But the football guy made two steps two...and apparently it was a ferocious flying forearm.

 

I really like you, but you're not entitled to your own definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_(football)

 

Yes, they both got two steps. Unfortunately that doesn't prove anything. Because you see, the nature of the two steps. Jones had two steps pretty damn comfortably, he threw himself to ground, as opposed to the football player who's body was at an angle to the ground. But yeah, he got his two feet down, so I guess that satisfies the requirement that isn't comparable with the Jones play?

No, it doesn't.

I made a little while ago that it's odd people look at the same replay and see different things and argue about it, and now I realize that's what I'm doing. This is frankly stupid, I view it as a horrible play by Jones and others want to justify it and think this kind of thing will take the US team forward to actually help them compete. Obviously, I agree to disagree.

Looking forward to tomorrow. Hopefully nothing like this play will be seen in that match, from either side.

 

"Dives are often used to exaggerate the amount of contact present in a challenge."

From your own link.

In any event, a scrape on the heel that results in Jones' reaction has always been a dive to me as long as I've known the game. Don't know what else to say, it will be my last comment on the matter.

 

There is nothing in that article that supports your definition. Did you read it?
Your definition is incorrect.

 

Thats a bit of jump there bro. You, and some others with you, view it as a horrible play by Jones and others, myself included, view this as something that quite a few others in our past have done but haven't been torn apart and called un-American and etc. (yes there are multiple posts that contain the "un-American" or "Anti-American" comments directed at JJ) but yet those players are celebrated which poses a double standard that personally I view as very unfair to Jones. The second side has repeatedly given evidence of this and how this compares to other sports where the spectators don't rip their players apart for the exact same thing (in fact in basketball it's praised if you drawl a foul, just saying). Yes there is a very small group that think that this will take the US team forward to actually help them compete but most of those have been trolls and a very small amount of posts like those (If I am later proven wrong I this last statement I apologize in advance but at the time of the post from what I have read this rings true).

 

Let me set the record straight...I'm not trying to tear apart Jones. I'm arguing against the idea of those that feel like this wasn't a dive in anyway, shape or form.

 

Fine you get your own category

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjloX_EvYiI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjloX_EvYiI[/ame]

 

SCORE!!!!!

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFNwPCHECZw"]YouTube - ‪Jermaine Jones Dive vs Jamaica‬‏[/ame]

So what really happened that day? Let's just for a moment speculate shall we? We have the epileptic seizure around 12:15, p.m. distracting the police making it easier for the shooters to move into their places. The epileptic later vanished, never checking into a hospital. The A-Team gets on the sixth floor of the depository. They were refurbishing the floors that week, which allowed unknown workmen access to the building. They move quickly into position just minutes before the shooting.

The spotter on the radio talking to the other two teams has the best overall view, the God spot. B-Team one shooter and one spotter with radio gear and access to the building, moves into the lower floor of the Dal-Tex building. The third team, the C-Team moves into the picket fence behind the Grassy Knoll, where the shooter and the spotter are first spotted by the late Lee Bowers in the watch tower of the rail yard. They have the best position of all. Kennedy is close and on a flat low trajectory.

Part of this team is a coordinator who has flashed security credentials at people chasing them out of the parking lot. Probably 2-3 more men are in the crowd on Elm. 10-12 men. Three shooters. Three spotters. The triangulation of fire that Clay Shaw and David Ferrie discussed two months before. They have walked the plaza. They know every inch. They have calibrated their sight. They have practiced on moving targets. They are ready.

Kennedy's motorcade makes the turn from Main onto Houston. It's gonna be a turkey shoot. They don't shoot him coming up Houston, which is the easiest shot for a single shot from the Book Depository. They Wait. They wait until he gets in the killing zone, between three rifles. Kennedy makes the final turn from Houston onto Elm, slowing down to some 11 miles an hour. The shooters across Dealy Plaza tighten, taking their aim, waiting for the radio to say "Green! Green!" or "Abort! Abort!".

The first shot rings out, sounding like a backfire it misses the car completely. Frame 161, Kennedy stops waiving as he hears something. Connaly's head turns slightly to the right. Frame 193, the second shot hits Kennedy in the throat from the front. Frame 225, the President emerging from behind the road sign, you can see that he's obviously been hit, raising his arms to his throat.

The third shot, frame 232, takes Kennedy in the back pulling him downward and forward. Connaly you'll notice shows no signs at all of being hit. He is visibly holding his Stetson, which is impossiable if his wrist has been shattered. Connaly is turning here now, frame 238 the fourth shot. It misses Kennedy and takes Connaly in the back. This is the shot that proves there were two rifles. Connaly yells out "My God! They are going to kill us all."

Somewhere around this time another shot that misses the car completely, strikes James Tague down by the underpass. The car brakes. The sixth and fatal shot, frame 313 takes Kennedy in the head from the front. This is the key shot. The President going back and to his left. Back and to his left, back and to his left,back and to his left, back and to his left. The shot is from the front and right. Totally inconstant with the shot from the Book Depository. So what happens then? Pandemonium.

 

The racial undertone of this whole thread is quite telling, the man made a play that benefits his country for that he is being called un-American, un-ethical,. I mean the negro from Germany is ruining the perfect American soccer.

 

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any more ridiculous... BAM... Race card.

 

The race card has been played quite a few times here, I guess you just didn't see it, or did you?

 

We're not touching race/ethnicity/american/un-american issues here in N&A. Also, the dive or no dive (depending on your point of view) itself has been discussed in circles ad nauseam.

If someone wants they can start a thread in USA Men (not N&A), but this thread is closed.