As a newbie perhaps you haven't seen as much of Teso as others. His actual style is to make a statement, for instance Zidane is not a top 250 player, and then call anyone who disagrees with that statement "ignorant". Teso also has a common habit of ignoring posts which point out the fundamental problem of his position. He will also use a blanket defence of "I've dealt with that". When he obviously hasn't. Teso thinks that his opinions are facts. For instance Teso has never bothered to comment on why he regards Alfredo di Stefano an all-time great player, but not Zidane, despite being asked the question on numerous occasions.
Why do you persist on posting personal attacks and trolling? What I originally posted still stands. I'll post it again below to see if you can comprehend it: More inane rambling. Come back to me when you can actually refute anything I post in a sensible and contructive manner. Therin lies the fundamental flaw and the one I initially pointed out. Granted things are complicated the further you look back into the history of the game but there is no excuse when comparing or ranking players from the modern game and particularly over the last 20 years. I agree that success is a factor to consider but it is a side factor and by no means the most important. Even the opening post highlights the flaw in using team achievements because it often has little to do with the player in question and everything to do with the other players involved. If a player was key to his sides and any subsequent success then it should be noted but that was not the case with Zidane. Even individual achievements are problematic because most are frankly a joke. At least the main ones have been over recent years with the better playing regularly not winning and it instead going to whoever won the biggest tournament during that time period, with complete disregard to everything else. Even non-subjective awards like top scorer can have issues but obviously far less. At this point in time there is no way you include everything without having to manually weed out the anomalies that occur. Zidane is one such player and if anyone disagrees with that then they can do a search. The only reason he is propeled so high in lists is because of aesthetics (which is an irrelevance) and by virtue of playing with some of the best sides (and therefore the best players) in his career. Thanks. I have already said that I will but at the moment all I am doing is working then sleeping, with very little time here inbetween. (a) and (b) have been dealt with countless times before. Zidane's 'significant' impact is vastly overstated, particularly outside of the two years of good and consistent form he did have. In fact his 'significant' impact almost entirely comes down to doing little and being carried by his great teams before he sometimes decides to show up in a couple of games or with some goals later on. That is it. The main exception was Euro 2000 during which he played well but disappeared in the final. His success has everything to do with the teams he has played in and very little to do with anything he has consistently contributed. Plus we already know that achievements (whether team or personal) and player quality are not mutually exclusive. I'll ignore the ignorance or clearly incorrect claims because now is neither the time nor place. I will ask that you find out who Christophe Dugarry is though. Now before anyone else decides to post in relation to the player in question they should first do a search because I'm sick of seeing the same old myths and rubbish posted in relation to Zidane. I'm also sick of seeing people ignorantly bash me instead of contributing in a sensible and mature manner. My opinion on Zidane is as follows. He was a good player who was very aesthetically pleasing but outside of his two year spell at the top he simply did not do enough for his teams. When he bothered to play he would add an extra quality to the side but the rest of the time he was simply a passenger. His standing in the game has been vastly overrated on account of aesthetics and by virtue of playing with some of the best teams around during his career. That's it. Now I have previously posted 50 odd players from 97-07 who I considered to be better. By extending that time period to the history of the game I have no doubt that I will end up with a list of 250 players and Zidane will not be one. It was an exercise I stated for another thread but unfortunately work has got in the way of everything at the moment and I want to wait until things calm down before I finish my list. I see no point in all of this discussion if I simply rush a list. That is where my initial claim came from and we shall see if I can prove it correct or not. See above and stop with your pathetic attacks. It is posters like you who have ruined what bigsoccer used to be. We are also still waiting on your lists or any form of sensible and constructive discussion.
As soon as you manually weed out something, you are being subjective. You need to stick to the rules even if you don't like the outcome, or it's not a proper ranking. It's like saying at the end of the season "Oh, Chelsea has the most points, but they got an undeserved penalty in this match, the best player of the opponent was injured in that match, and they were more than lucky to win in three others, overall Manchester United were the much better team, so we will award the Championship to them instead." You don't do that.
It's not a proper ranking as it is and it will never be one unless someone can create a set of rules that does not create any anomalies. When you put that much weight on achievement then it stands no chance. Until a watertight solution is reached then you must manually weed them out because if you don't then the entire exercise is pointless. We know that certain players have been successful in their careers but we also know that their quality does not merit them a place that high in the ranking. Stating that Zidane is an anomaly and should be removed is therefore not subjective but objective. Your last section makes no sense at all particularly in relation to this discussion. Let's use a more relevant example and consider top goalscorer. If you asked who was the top goalscorer in the history of the World Cup then Ronaldo would be the answer. It is a fact that cannot be disputed. However, if you wanted to know who the best striker in the history of the World Cup was then you obviously need to consider a whole range of objective factors like games played (etc) while also strictly defining the criteria of the list. I don't see any issue with that. Since there is no definitive list of best player then we need to do likewise and consider lots of factors. As I stated above, changing a list that uses a flawed formula is not immediately subjective. Plus discussing the accuracy of a list will obviously involve a combination of objective and subjective factors.
I won't deny Teso's a prick but the way phil80 constantly insults him without reason is just plain unneccessary. Seeing as you're so eager to see my list, I have hurried and rushed to see my list, I'll indulge in your little challenge. Off the top of my head, here are 50 players I rate higher than Zidane in no particular order, just for you. Pele, Beckenabuer, Maradona, Eusebio, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Garrincha, Baresi, Maldini, Van Basten, Czibor, Puskas, Bozkik, Kocsik, Zico, Platini, Ademir, Jair, Zizinho, Didi, Tostao, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Djalma Santos, Yashin, Faccheti, Rivera, Gento, Moore, Platini, Best, Charlton, Nordahl, Redondo, Passarella, Scirea, Moreno, Santamaria, Keane, Matthaus, Gullit, (fat) Ronaldo, Romario, Edwards, Dalglish, Breitner, Muller, Sepp Maier, Gentile, Nilton Santos, I'm sure I've missed out some massive names(which I know you will point out) but this was a rushed list just to show you how easy it is imo to leave Zidane out of the top 50.
Again your views are uncredibly simplistic. Zidane scored some goals 'later on' as you say but these goals as well as his playmaking allowed his national team and his clubs to win titles (see above) so yes I think he had a more than significant impact on his teams' results. These are straight facts -unless you consider France would have had such a success without him ?- not 'ignorance' or 'clearly incorrect claims' as you say. As for Dugarry, I suppose you refer to the two goals he scored against AC Milan in 96 EUFA cup 1/4 final and the one against Slavia Praha in the 1/2 final ? That's right he was pretty good then -as well as Lizarazu- but all these goals came from Zidanes' assists who was also a key factor against Betis Real in the 1/8 final... Once again I repeat that Zidane could have done more and better if he had shown more consistency at club level in his carreer. He should have scored more goals in particular. But I fail to see why he should not be picked along names like Raymond Kopa, Roger Piantoni or Alain Giresse -to name French players who played more or less at the same position- who I think would be in any top 250 list (certainly Kopa and Giresse at least)... He did more and better than them. As for current players, take Figo for example - he didn't win more, his stats are not better than Zidane and yet he would probably be in any top 100 list... That's not coherent.
It's also easy to leave half of these names out of it - I wouldn't mind picking Zidane instead of Keane, Gentile or Jairzinho for example. Except the obvious top 15-20 players it's very hard to make such a list because many players are very close. I would leave the GK out also.
Let me do it in the opposite direction first : picking the players in your list that would precede Zidane without a doubt (at least in my mind...) : Pele, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Eusebio, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Garrincha,Van Basten, Puskas, Kocsik, Zico, Platini, Charlton, Ronaldo, Romario. There are probably a few more but they don't come in my mind. The rest is composed of : a) Players that I think Zidane would precede : Keane, Gentile, Scirea, Jairzinho, Tostao, Dalglish, Edwards, Gento, Bozsik, Czibor, Redondo b) Players I don't know enough to make a fair judgement (sorry about that): Ademir, Jair, Zizinho, Moreno, Santamaria c) The rest : players who I think are more or less in the same league as Zidane (I would add Rumenigge, Rivaldo, Baggio, Mazzola and certainly some more) I don't want to pick any GK I think it's too difficult to compare with other positions.
The insults are not without reason. Teso does it on a constant basis in several threads, (read the 'Lampard booed' thread to see where posters got fed up with Teso's antics). Now back to the topic, there are too many players in your list that i dont think should get inclusion over zidane (and especially not definately better than him like you claim). And wasnt it you that claimed Giggs was better than Best (astonishingly), so how come you include Best but not Giggs? where's the consistency?
Just ignore both comme and phil80, who are notorious for their pathetic vendetta against me and their trolling antics in a variety of threads as a direct result. The above is a perfect example but unlike that duo, I will rise above their pathetic sniping.
Good boy, you rise above the nasty man. Given that I appear to have your attention though, why not humour me for a moment? Why do you consider Alfredo di Stefano to be an all-time great, but don't consider Zidane to be among the 250 best players of all-time? Now please, on a serious note, do not do your disappearing act. Try and give this question a serious answer.
It's an inherently stupid question. Di Stefano, as a player, was the polar opposite to Zidane. I'll put aside the fact that he was a far superior all round player and concentrate on the other factors. Di Sefano was the key component to his sides. He was the most influential player and his level of performance and consistency was far beyond what Zidane has produced. They both played for very good teams but, unlike Zidane, Di Stefano was never a passenger and played a crucial role in the success of his sides. All Zidane has is a couple of years at the top and a handful of good performances and/or goals in some of his bigger games. That is it and it is in no way comparable to some of the players of his own generation, let alone one of the best players to have ever played the game. Zidane is all about the aesthetics.
Hmm.. Who shouldn't get inclusion? On Giggs, he totally slipped my mind, you can add him in at the end if it makes you happy.
How do you know any of this about di Stefano? Things you have read about him? Awards he won? Praise from other players? Trophies won? Highlights watched? The problem with this is that any evidence you wish to point to, I could show you the same for Zidane. That is the problem with your argument. Under any rational criteria he will feature in a list of greats. How do you know that Di Stefano didn't go missing, how many full games of him have you actually seen?
look if you guys want to argue about Zidane there is plenty of room to start a new thread, the bottom line is that all your arguments are opinions and that Zidane wether you like it or not won a World Cup for his country with 2 goals against Brazil in 1998, so name 250 players that have done the same, but then again he probably lost a World Cup for his country in 2006 with his poor judgement, name 250 players that have done that. So Tese i do think your comment is ridiculous nevertheless it is your opinion.
Nobody can present an objective point of view because each one has a different form to valuing characteristics of each player, so, an opinion as Teso Dos Bichos can be respected, but I think it's really difficult to take it seriously in a discussion. Maybe it's too advanced to our times and all the world have been deceived with exception of Teso, maybe... .
Have you computed any new player? --- This is the score of Mihails Zemlinskis: Club Caps: 269 *1 =269 Country Caps: 105 *3 =315 Domestic Championships: 13 *40 =520 Club Goal (he is a defender): 57 *8 =456 Country Goal: 12 *10 =120 Total: 1,620 Almost as much as Krol (1,952)...
no i haven't, i just haven't any time recently, i will probably do some more later today it shouldn't take long cuz i've got a script set up
Jurgen Klinsmann: Club Caps 514 *1 =514 Country Caps 108 *3 = 324 World Cup Caps 17 *5 =85 Domestic Championships 1 *40 =40 Club Continental Champs. (0 if UEFA Cup is not valid) Country Continental Champs. 1 *150 =150 World Cup Champs. 1 *300 =300 Domestic Player of Year 3 *50 =150 Domestic Golden Boot 1 *50 =50 Club Goal 232 *2 = 464 Country Goal 47 * 4 =188 World Cup Goal 11 *8 =88 Total: 2,353. That puts him at position 20, above Didi, Moore, Best, Baresi and Krol.
Two players ahead of Garrincha (16th in the original ranking): Bican and Romario. --- Josef Bican (striker) Sources: http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html#bican http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/worldtops.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Bican Club Caps 358 Country Caps 47*3=141 World Cup Caps 4*5=20 Domestic Championships 8*40=320 International Golden Boot 5*100=500 Domestic Golden Boot 12*50=600 Club Goal 537*2=1,064 Country Goal 46*4=184 World Cup Goal 1*8=8 Club Continental Champs., Club Intercontinental Champs., Country Continental Champs, Country Intercontinental Champs., International Player of Year, Domestic Player of Year: nothing such at his time Total: 3,195 --- Romario Sources: http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html#romario http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/statisticsandrecords/players/player=63547/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romário Club Caps 463 Country Caps 70*3= 210 World Cup Caps 8*5=40 Domestic Championships 5*40=200 Country Continental Champs. 2*150=300 Country Intercontinental Champs. 1*150=150 World Cup Champs. 1*300=300 World Cup Golden Ball 1*100=100 World Cup All-Star 1*50=50 International Player of Year 1*100=100 Domestic Player of Year 2*50=100 Domestic Golden Boot 7*50=350 Club Goal 323*2=646 Country Goal 4*56=224 World Cup Goal 5*8=40 Total: 3,273