Euro 2016 Qualification Thread.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Has Van Persie received an extraordinary amount of kicks in his career? More as other top class players?

    Or was/is he bad at diving and evading?
     
  2. Oranje98

    Oranje98 Member

    Aug 8, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Ok , I think it would have been unreasonable to drop players who played in the WC. I think Hiddink will make gradual effective changes to the team until the Euro's.

    How do you see Oranje's future strategy till Russia 2018 ? Continue with 3-5-2 ? Return to our traditional 4-3-3 ? Or may be 3-4-3 ?
    In my humble opinion , with the characteristics of the defenders , Midfielders and Strikers we have , we can go for 3-4-3.
    The Ajax 1995 team always pops in my mind when I remember 3-4-3 strategy.

    http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/

    This article analyses the 95 Ajax team really good.

    I think for the next Euro , we should go for this back line :

    De Vrij ...... N. de jong ... Blind

    This back line can be very good for Oranje. LCB in a three defenders back line is probably the position that suites Blind the most. He had his best game against Chile in this position , man-marking Alexis. He is not a natural LB , a naturl DMF or even a LCB in a 4 defenders system . This 3-4-3 system is a perfect fit for him.
    Nigel will also enjoy this new position with the team a lot. It doesn't really need speed. It needs good reading for the game , ability to handle pressure and a quick turn. Nigel can fit there perfectly. He can play four more years with Oranje in this role. He will be 33 years old by 2018 WC , which is very Acceptable.
    De vrij already had a pretty good world cup in the same position , so I think he will only get better with playing in a stronger league and gaining more experience.

    We also have good subs for them. Kongolo can probably play in the three positions. Rekik , shall he regain his form , can play as a LCB or may be as a Libero. Not to forget about Vlaar , Veltman , Viergever , or even Indi who had a good game for Porto yesterday. They can all be good in a 3-4-3 sytem.

    Looking to the Midfeild , Ajax played with a diamond shaped midfield. Rijakaard as a no. 6 , both Davids "on the left" and RdB "on the right" as box to box players with defensive and offensive duties. Litmanen played the playmaker role , but also had his defensive duties in the midfield with Rijkaard.

    Can we apply the same strategy with the players we have ?
    _________ Hendrix ? ______
    Ginkel___________ Strootman
    _________ Depay ?________

    Subs.

    ________ Ake ? _________
    Klaassen ? / Wijnaldum ? ___ Duarte?
    ________ Promes _______

    Regarding the upfront trio , I think Robben can play four more years with Oranje as a striker "No. 9".
    We can use Narsingh / Boetius or Kishna/Ghazi for instance , Elia is still an option in my opinion, and don't forget that Depay and Promes can play there.
    Imagining this team forms a chemistry with a good team spirit , makes me believe we can win the WC in 4 years.
     
  3. Oranje98

    Oranje98 Member

    Aug 8, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Amazing moments. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Thought we should have a thread to discuss all things related to the Qualification round for the Euros. Hiddink names his first squad:

    Goalkeepers: Jeroen Zoet (PSV), Jasper Cillessen (Ajax) Tim Krul (Newcastle United)

    Defenders: Daryl Janmaat (Newcastle United) Erik Pieters (Stoke City) Ron Vlaar (Aston Villa) Joel Veltman (Ajax) Stefan de Vrij (Lazio) Bruno Martins Indi (Porto) Paul Verhaegh (Augsburg)

    Midfielders: Daley Blind (Ajax) Davy Klaassen (Ajax) Jordy Clasie (Feyenoord) Nigel de Jong (Ac Milan) Leroy Fer (QPR) Rafael van der Vaart (Hamburg) Ibrahim Afellay (Olympiakos) Georginio Wijnaldum (PSV) Wesley Sneijder (Galatasaray)

    Forwards: Dirk Kuyt (Fenerbahce) Klaas jan Huntelaar (Schalke) Memphis Depay (PSV) Robin van Persie (Manchester United) Jeremain Lens (Dynamo Kiev) Arjen Robben (Bayern Munich)
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Happy with inclusion of Pieters

    Don't understand Verhaegh, Afellay, Kuijt (as forward) and Lens.
     
  6. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Afellay scored in his debut for Olympiacos
     
  7. Radu Razvan

    Radu Razvan Member+

    Mar 1, 2013
    Bucharest, Romania
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    Maybe Kuyt will play again wing-back. Do you know guys if Guus will use the same system like Louis, with 3 defenders?
     
  8. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    That whole Czech team is garbage. I only recognize 3 players:

    http://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=222961

    Doel: Petr Cech (Chelsea), Tomás Vaclik (FC Basel), David Bicik (Sparta Praag)

    Verdediging: Pavel Kadebarek (Sparta Praag), Radim Reznik (Viktoria Plzen), Michal Kadlec (Fenerbahce), Marek Suchy (FC Basel), David Limbersky, Vaclav Prochazka (beiden Viktoria Plzen), Daniel Pudil (FC Watford)

    Middenveld: Vladmir Darida (SC Freiburg), Borak Dockal (Sparta Praag), Tomás Horava (Viktoria Plzen), Petr Jiracek (Hamburger SV), Daniel Kolar (Viktoria Plzen), Ladisalv Krejci (Sparta Praag), Vaclav Pilar, Milan Petrzela (beiden Viktoria Plzen), Tomás Rosicky (Arsenal)

    Aanval: Matej Vydra (FC Watford)
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  10. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I asked the Moderator to close the thread I created this morning as this already existed and maybe I was still not fully awake when I started the new one. Anyway, lets keep the discussion HERE!


    Hiddink names his first squad:

    Goalkeepers: Jeroen Zoet (PSV), Jasper Cillessen (Ajax) Tim Krul (Newcastle United)

    Defenders: Daryl Janmaat (Newcastle United) Erik Pieters (Stoke City) Ron Vlaar (Aston Villa) Joel Veltman (Ajax) Stefan de Vrij (Lazio) Bruno Martins Indi (Porto) Paul Verhaegh (Augsburg)

    Midfielders: Daley Blind (Ajax) Davy Klaassen (Ajax) Jordy Clasie (Feyenoord) Nigel de Jong (Ac Milan) Leroy Fer (QPR) Rafael van der Vaart (Hamburg) Ibrahim Afellay (Olympiakos) Georginio Wijnaldum (PSV) Wesley Sneijder (Galatasaray)

    Forwards: Dirk Kuyt (Fenerbahce) Klaas jan Huntelaar (Schalke) Memphis Depay (PSV) Robin van Persie (Manchester United) Jeremain Lens (Dynamo Kiev) Arjen Robben (Bayern Munich)
     
  11. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Just merge the 2 threads, please
     
  12. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    Club:
    --other--
    Okay threads merged :D
     
    TFC Ajax repped this.
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    You are a HERO!!;)
     
  14. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member+

    Jan 26, 2007
    Notable miss is Kongolo. And he's not part of the U21 setup, either. Is he injured?

    Very experienced (read: old) forward selection, aside from Depay. Disappointed that nobody is challenging these old guards. Had my eyes on Quicy Promes before W.C, wonder how he's doing in Russia. I'd imagine he will have learning curve playing his trait there. And he'll be probably under-scouted.
     
  15. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I have watched 2 Spartak matches now for him. I must say that while he looked ignored in the first game, the second game I saw he was approached with some encouraging behavior from his team mates. When he messed up an easy chance due to bad first touch, they all acted encouraging. Had a good assist in that match, but was also subbed. Plays at the right wing side. Not impressed so far with him tough.

    Concerning the scouting, I can imagine this not being that much of a problem. Hiddink has worked in Russia. Both on club level and NT level. He values Russian football and if Promes does well there, I think he will be called up.
     
    Radu Razvan repped this.
  16. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Experimentation is good but I don't want to risk not qualifying with Duarte, Ake , Klaassen, Hendrix, etc

    The 4-3-3- is a must as a permanent formation, the 3 man backline should be a backup emergency one. The 4-3-3 has so many subtle tweaks and variations in itself which can be used.

    Blind made a lot of fouls and was not convincing against Chile even though he held his own. De Jong is a midget and despite being a defensive beast at DM has never been played at CB which leads me to think he will flop miserably at CB.

    Many great destroyers at DM have played CB and surprisingly failed. For Euro 16, Hunter and RVP will still be good players and I doubt El Ghazi or Kishna will develop so rapidly (Considering the level of Eredivisie anyway). Promes has gone to Russia and Depay at LW is my only hope. I see Robben at RW and think till Euro 16 that will be the solution.

    After that Robben will be 32 and maybe will be moved to ST if we get quality wingers or who knows if we get quality wingers and ST's he can play 10 as well.

    I like the optimism over young players but would like to see them doing well at a good level for 1-2 years before changing or commenting. Vlaar is a much better defender than Kongolo and Blind at CB by a huge margin. Let Kongolo have 2 good seasons with Feyenoord at CB first before atleast being considered as a starter.

    There's 2 full years and no need to rush. There's a large pool and the only worry is Eredivisie's level and wrong club choices of young players
     
  17. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    RVP Robben Hunter are all 30-31 which is not really old. Pirlo is what 33-34 odd?

    For a ST 30-31 is nothing and Zlatan is possibly older. Besides Robben is still very fast, fast enough to be a winger.

    So maybe bar Kuyt there is no old guard IMO. Okay Sneijder/VDV will be at Euro 16 if now new 10's come or the formation is eased. Everyone deserves their chances and even the old guard. There is no need to rush through changes. Hiddink is going on with continuity, nurturing most of LVG's team of old players. Maybe
    when a top LB, 10 or Promes develops further, Kuyt VDV will itself be eased out.
     
  18. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Sometimes you should forget about the individual talent and bet more on the group cohesion. Players such as Depay, Wijnaldum, Van Ginkel...would never show their best if they have Van Persie, Robben and Sneijder above them. So yeah, probably in 2016 Sneijder will still be individually better than Van Ginkel and Van persie better than Kishna, but don't you want some changes ? Look at France without Ribery, its best player, they played better than last years. A Kishna young, fresh and ultra motivated can offer more than a frustrated old Van Persie. Even if less good with the ball.

    You also have to consider that big clubs don't offer contracts to dutch talent because of the bad reputation eredivisie got those last years. De Vrij playing the same world cup in 98 would get a deal with Juventus or Real, not with Lazio. So When you say : "Maybewhen a top LB, 10 or Promes develops further, Kuyt VDV will itself be eased out.", you probably mean "when they'll play for better clubs". But as long as Eredivisie will keep sucking in europe, no big club will come for the dutch talents. Or maybe they'll come like they came for Afellay and Van Ginkel, to make a bet on a cheap/ one year contract left player to use him as rotation player, but Real or Bayern won't make any big offer for an eredivisie player to make him a starter.

    The only way to change that is to make something big with this new generation. Remember Zenith/Russia in 2008, that summer you could read rumours about russian/zenith players linked to big clubs everywhere. And Arshavin got his deal with Arsenal, Pavluchenko with Tottenham, Tymoschuk with Bayern...That's why it would be great for PSV to make something in europa league, even if the competition doesn't bring much money, they have to consider than a Wijnaldum, Willems or Depay that just won an europa league can be sold twice more than a Wijnaldum, Willems or Depay that lost in group stage against Rijeka. If their plan is to make money and sell players as always, they really should have a big interest to play every europa league more seriously than eredivisie ones. Eredivisie + CL group stage = 20mo, selling Depay that just won EL = 30mo at least.

    That's simply what dutch football is lacking : reputation. The fact De Vrij signed to Lazio, BMI to Porto, Janmaat to N'castle etc. while Holland finished 3rd at the world cup with these players is the biggest proof. No matter how good they can be, as long as they play in clubs that struggle to beat Zorya, no one will pay for them.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'm sorry but until Kishna starts scoring goals for Ajax he cannot even be mentioned in the same sentence as van Persie (and I want Kishna to succeed).

    Are you saying that DeVrij is as good a defender as Jaap Stam? If so, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Which of these three players had any kind of real success outside of Russia? Where are they playing today. Look at the young Dutch players on van Basten's team. It's fair to say that they have had much more success. Would you rather have Robben or Arshavin on your team today?

    If this is true PSV should have gotten a few €s for Strootman and nothing more.

    Maybe these players are not that good and under the collective that was van Gaal they excelled. Now we don't know the answer to that at this point and may not for a couple of more years.

    The other thing to remember is that the Bosman Rule was just taking effect in 1998. Ajax was three years removed from a CL win and two from a CL runner up. Some of those core players and others were still with Dutch clubs. The situation is vastly different today than 15-20 years ago. I'm afraid that we cannot turn the clock back. What we can hope for is that young players stay in league until they are 23 or 24 years old to hone their skills with first team football before moving abroad.
     
  20. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    1) I'm mentionning Kishna, but it can also be El Ghazi if he turns as ST, those two are the most interesting options currently but they are not used as ST.

    2) No, De Vrij is no Jaap Stam. But who is Jaap Stam in the football today ? The best CB are considered to be Thiago Silva ? Sergio Ramos ? They are no Jaap Stam neither. Oh yeah, Barcelona bought Mathieu 20mo from Valencia, a 30yo defender who barely played with France. But they couldn't give 10 mo for De Vrij who is young and had a good world cup ? Strange.

    3) Arshavin was good with Arsenal when he came, Pavluchenko and Tymoshuk didn't start bad but suffered from the competition after. No matter if they succeded or failed, the point was to show that with winning a EL, you definitly worth more than when you only shine in your league. Especially when it's russian league or eredivisie. That's also why Porto and Benfica sold their players for 30mo every year (Benfica doesn't win it, but reachs finale), Shakthar did etc. so knowing that dutch clubs want to sell their players, I just find strange that they don't concentrate more on europe, cause doing something there will dubble the value of players.

    Now you mentionned Strootman, who left for 17mo if I'm not mistaken, the biggest amount for a dutch player since Huntelaar I think. How much do you expect for Depay or Wijnaldum if PSV does an average season ? I would say 15-18mo max for Depay, 9-12 for Wijnaldum (knowing that he just extended his contract). If you want to compare to Lallana bought for 31mo, Rondon to Zenith for 19mo and plenty other cases like that, you see that even the best dutch players worth nothing.

    4) Bosman rule also affects the portuguese league but yet they are doing much better than Holland in almost every aspect.
     
  21. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think long term either one of those may end up in the middle. There are few strikers in the "traditional manner" these days. A player like Sigthorrsson has the physique but his first touch often fails him. It might be better for FdB and the club to focus on more interchanging of positions among the front three.

    I agree! I'm a big Barca fan but I think they wildly overspend for players. They do this because they have so much TV money while the other clubs in Spain (except Madrid) flirt with bankruptcy. They buy attackers and forget about defense. I was surprised three years ago that they didn't make a bid for Vertonghen. Puyols was on his last legs as a player and Vertonghen could have slotted right in on the left center of the defense. They could have bought him for €12M. So what happens, as you note they spend more money on a player who is older and not as good. Go figure!

    Part of it was also Russia's success in the Euros that year as well. The Portuguese teams are special cases as they tend to bring in young Brazillian players, get them European exposure and then sell for more than they bought. Other than the three top teams the rest of the Portuguese league is pretty bad. I don't know how the lower teams stay financially stable.

    Depay's value will increase regardless of how PSV do in the EL, he is a quality player. I like Wijnaldum but he's more a specialty player that needs a good system to play in, not sure about his ultimate value. I don't know why the Dutch players don't command higher transfer fees. Part of it may be the teams need to sell earlier for financial reasons; this was certainly the case with Feyenoord in recent years and also PSV to some extent. Clubs that have large TV or billionaire owner money are always in a position to buy players. Even bad English teams can pay €10M or more for players; this is ridiculous since only about 3-4 teams in the EPL ever have a chance of winning the championship. I think Liverpool spent over €100M for players this season (though they did get lots of money for Suarez - and one needs to question whether Barca paid too much for him).
     
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Top ten most expensive outgoing Premier League transfers:
    1 Ruud van Nistelrooy (PSV> Manchester United - 28.5 million)
    2 Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (Ajax> Real Madrid - 27 million)
    3 Wesley Sneijder (Ajax> Real Madrid - 27 million)
    4 Luis Suarez (Ajax> Liverpool - 26.5 million)
    5. Christian Chivu (Ajax> AS Roma - 18 million)
    5 Arjen Robben (PSV> Chelsea - 18 million)
    5 Dirk Kuyt (Feyenoord> Liverpool - 18 million)
    5. Daley Blind (Ajax> Manchester United - 18 million)
    9 Ryan Babel (Ajax> Liverpool - 17.25 million)
    10 Dennis Bergkamp (Ajax> Internazionale - 17 million)
    Jaap Stam (PSV> Manchester United - 17 million)
    Kevin Strootman (PSV> AS Roma - 17 million)
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Netherlands will not play 3-5-2, but with 4 defenders at the back.
     
  24. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

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