Pre-match: England Vs Ukraine ,Tuesday, 11/09/2012 ,Wembley

Better technical squad than us I'm afraid.

It's baby steps for us, and that's what it should be. Regardless of some of the players technical ability, they have to start getting used to playing the ball on the ground, first touch, and moving into space. A high tempo game is only going to get you so far in Tournament play, especially in hot countries\seasons. You have to try and learn how to not concede possession cheaply. Does that mean never play a high tempo and playing tiki? No. Just picking your moments in games to go at a back line with speed, and at other times making sure you make them work hard, rather than us chasing shadows for 60 mins.

Edit: Regarding the game.... even though Lampard and Gerrard were not too bad, I'm not sure what Roy thinks he will achieve by playing them as a mid 2 against half decent opposition, in fact it will all end in more tears if he persists with consistently building a mid 2 between Gerrard\Lampard\Parker.

 

If you compare the Euro's and many years of playing half decent opposition....that seems to be the norm for us unfortunately. Giving up possession, and struggling in basic passing and control. It's nothing new, and though I do realise that we had problems yesterday in various departments (we looked particulaly vulnerable at the back), it wasn't that bad. We had possession, and we tried to attack. Yes a lot of the passing was in our own half (which is also a little frustrating at times), but as I said, baby steps.

 

i agree with a lot of prenns comments here, but he was also got it wrong at the euros, put a lot of strong predictions on england not getting out the group, and we came out top. i also think he is wrong about the talent base. its england, we always have talented athletes coming into football. the problem is completely in their education. im still hoping for the mythical change that sets in and starts converting the athletes into professional footballers in the way that everyother country manages to do. roy is the best person to lead change by a million million miles, given his credentials in the both the world-game of football, and the english establishment halls of the fa , the premier league and sky. i just hope change is on his agenda because there are worrying signs at times.

at karloski, i cant see too much forward potential in the coming few years. 2016 is the next bankable chance of england doing anything serious, and clearly that is not even looking likely.

on milner, i hate him so much. he has that thing that that useless cont camoranesi had in in italy, getting selected by so many astute managers like capello , lipp etc, played a ridiculous number of games for both italy and juve over the years, lots of big matches playing down the wing, and pretty much every match he did fa and his team lost the big match. ran a lot, and was pretty nippy, far more so than milner, but never opened teams up in any way, total waste of an attacking name on a team sheet. but this is what happens if you want to play old school wingers. in terms of how many goals they get you from crosses or dribbles, the return of 1 goal every 3 games from both the wings combined, or whatever the stat is (it must be small) is just not worth committing 2 attacking players to those positions. way better to have another body or two in midfield and defense to provide options for a side that clearly struggles to pass the ball.

 

Nope, I said the balance of probability was against us but I did say that a result against France favoured us to progress. That was the case. Just because we qualified did not mean we were 100% certain to do so.

But that is what partly defines our talent base! We've got strikers coming through with goal records of close to 1 in 4 rather than 1 in 2. We have central midfield players (Wilshere, Cleverley) who are comfortable on the ball but offer little goal threat and who is in reserve? Where's the next David Platt? Gazza? Gerrard? Lampard? Scholes? Beckham? Where's the next Tony Adams, Rio Ferdinand, Sol Campbell, John Terry? Where's the next Owen, Fowler, Wright, Cole, Shearer, Lineker, Sheringham?

We've got to make the best of what we've got here and now and hope that changes to coaching structure bring through a new crop of England players who are significantly better within the next few years. There's no use kidding ourselves though or we get as rabid as the Yanks when they get a player like Freddy Adu and we all know how funny that is!

 

I genuinely don't think it's the young players that are the problem. Welbeck, Oxe, Wilshere, Smalling and the like would be promising young players for any nation.

The problem is the players we have now, the current generation of 26-30 year olds. Players of that age should be the backbone of your squad and apart from Rooney (who is just a one off type talent) we have at best average players from that age-group.

 

Well Wilshere I'll give you, although bear in mind he's had the best part of over a year out of the game and that is certainly not good for a player of his age. He doesn't score enough though, which in itself isn't a problem if he's partnered in midfield with someone who does or we have strikers who do.

Welbeck I'm not so sure about to be honest. He's hard working, isn't too bad on the ball but he does not score enough and again that's fine if the people around him do.

As for Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain you're basing your views on what you hope he can do, what he may have the potential to do rather than what he has done. We're dangerously into Freddy Adu territory there.

So, you identify the 26-30 year group as the problem but I ask you just who under 26 is producing the goods week in week out? The kind of goods that the England team needs. Of those players how do they compare to the previous generation or the one before that?

 

What part of the word 'expect' do you not understand?

 

I don't know what's happened to you mate, I used to respect your opinion on the game. If the Yanks were getting uppity I used to wait with high expectation for the reasoned, informed slap down you would give them but now? I don't know. It seems you don't think logically about the game; you pick on a single player (Milner, SWP), you seemed so anti-Capello until he was sacked, the tactics we play with are always the wrong tactics.

You might not want to hear me say that we're an inferior side to what we were, you might not like it that I didn't share your certainty of progression from the Euro2012 group but at least you could debate the points I made in a reasoned way instead of getting dismissive and dragging through old posts and twisting the meaning of my words.

 

Here was me thinking he played in the Champions League knockout stages for Arsenal and started a game at the Euro's at 18. Freddy Adu territory c'mon. And Welbeck was in Man U's starting XI at 21. I'm not saying we have players equivalent of a teenage Owen or Rooney (maybe Wilshere's in that class) but that's pretty rare.

Remember Rio (and all the mistakes he use to make) at 21 or Frank, they had big question marks around them, Carrick was in the 2nd tier for a while and got brought by Portsmouth for a piddling amount. You are being somewhat rose-tinted.

Let me ask you a question. Name me one decent English central midfielder that's older than Tom Cleverly (23) but younger than Scott Parker (31)?

 

I also said I thought we'd go out at the group stage. As Prenn said, given our history in the competition and the quality of the squad overall, there was always a chance that may have been the case. To call anyone out for making such a prediction is petty, especially as we didn't play well in any of the games (last 30 mins against Sweden was probably the only time).

I also said after watching the first 2 freindly games under Roy, that I'd prefer him to play the long term game and begin to get the players playing a more positive game and use the competition to do so, as we were never good enough to win..I still wish he had, because that was some of the worst bunkerball, minnow, technically inept football I've seen from us in a long time. I am slightly more positive after the game against Ukraine (aside from Lamps and Gerrard in the middle), because it looks like we're at least trying to address some of our issues, and I at least am realistic about the current ability of our squad and it's limitations.

 

AOC played in those games but what did he actually do? That's the crux of the matter. We know the lad can run with the ball at his feet but what else? He's a winger, does he score many? Does he set up many? It's no use looking at his play and thinking how good he looks what is he actually doing? How does that compare with other England players who have played on the left over the last two decades?

Welbeck has been getting into the United line up for a few years, that's true, but what has he done? He averages a goal nearly 1 in every 4 games, as I said earlier that's fine if he's with someone else who does score. How many does he set up? Do you really think he will be a United regular or even at the club in the future with a goal record like that?

Cleverley... 23 years old and less than 30 Premier League games to his name. What has he done to justify the hype? Played for Manchester United? That's not enough. You lumped him into the 'decent central midfielder' group but with what justification? He's got potential and has looked good in a hanful of games but there's a world apart between that and actually producing the goods.

Potential, that's what these players have, we hope they will improve and become great but that does not justify comparisions with previous generations when there were players in their positions at their age doing the job week in week out. We will always have young players coming through, we must be careful not to hold the best of those young players to standards they are not capable of achieving.

There are some players who improve a bit with age (Andy Johnson) but when was Carrick a mainstay of the England team? He's never been and that's the issue. These players who come in at a later age tend to be back up.

Perhaps you misunderstand my position on this. I want these young players in the England team, I'd prefer them in over the old guard because they need the experience when we see a surge in retirements of the over 30s in the next couple of years. It's exciting to see how the team might evolve. I just think that expectations need to be tempered, the pressure put on the likes of Cleverley and Wilshere to run the midfield will only lead to disappointment. Look at the stick Cleverley has taken since the game on Tuesday, I didn't think he played well but there's time for him to improve. I've seen people call him crap, criticising him for a lack of technique, calling him over-hyped (not on BigSoccer I might add). How does this help? All it shows is that expectations are too high. The problem is that potential is confused with ability. He is a player of some great potential and not great ability (yet).

 

Where? Yet again you're shown that you don't read, don't comprehend, don't think. What has happened to you? As soon as a debate appears that you disagree with you flop into the default position of attacking a strawman? FFS you are better than this! The world is not black and white, I can think England are worse than they've been for a long time without thinking they're shit. I should also point out that I was relatively pleased with the performance on Tuesday. I was also relatively pleased, all things considered, with what we did at Euro2012 so it contrasts completely with what you suggest I think.

Let me ask you this question and I want an honest answer; Is the team we currently put out as strong as we've been able to field for the last decade or so? If you say yes I want to know why and I want to know how you justify it.

 

Did you watch the Milan game? He was terrific. Be honest comparing him to Adu is pushing credulity.

 

No, not comparing with Adu but comparing the situation.

Do you think he'll turn into an Alan Shearer?

Decent. That's the word. He's decent.

No, you misunderstand. Compare him with what the players were contributing when they were his age, It's not pretty reading.

It's all back to potential. Many of the players in the U21s will become full England internationals by default in the near future. Will they make the step up? Who knows, that's part of the excitement.

 

Fair enough.