England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'England' started by BarryfromEastenders, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    I don't know, I think having more money just means that English clubs have been subject to the law of diminishing returns on player investment, the more money you have the less value you get.

    At a club like United they work all year on 3 targets for each position they need to upgrade. I'm sure that all clubs work in a similar way. If a rich club goes to buy a player at the start of the window the selling club knows that it's their first choice and all the work that's gone into identifying the player as such. It's a strong sellers market and there's zero incentive for the selling club to give a rich club a bargain, rather they are in a strong position to rinse them. If they're dealing with a club that has less wealth and the player wants out then the dynamics of what a good deal looks like for the selling club changes.

    I'm not saying it's a linear relationship, just that getting value for money in football is harder when you are rich.

    United have been the worst buying club in recent times but that's a structural issue. Under the Glazers and Woodward they allowed the manager to chose the players they wanted rather than having a DOF, transfer committee etc. Each new manager had their own ideas of how they wanted to play so needed clear outs of players bought for the style the last manager, along with the purchases to implement their own style. It created a lot of churn and square pegs in round holes. The whole idea of the modern club structure is to have continuality in the playing style so when a manager leaves they can be replaced by another manager with a similar philosophy. It's far cheaper to replace the manager than the playing staff. Under Ratcliffe United are adopting a modern structure behind the scenes which would've happened regardless of the UEFA coefficients this season.
     
  2. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    If £37m was an overpay for Van de Ven, I shudder to think what Everton will be asking for Branthwaite, (I doubt Spurs are in for him)
     
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  3. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    The downside of that is you then get players who the manager clearly doesn’t like but the club bosses do and who the manager is pressured into using despite not wanting to.
     
  4. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    For the majority of the game Rice played in that 8 role that personally I don't think he ever looks that good in. First half he did a decent job leading the press in Bayern's half and his interceptions meant Bayern were pinned back for a lot of it but second half Bayern really took over and Musiala did give him the run around. They had quite a few individual duals and Musiala won every one of them so it was a game for Rice to forget really.

    When he eventually switched back to 6 it was Havertz who went back into midfield to join him which again totally exposes Rice's limitations. I very much believe Rice is one of the best 6s in the world but like every other 6 he has limitations. Casemiro has serious limitations on the ball but at Real Madrid they paired him with Modric and Kroos to hide that, while Rodri has limitations in terms of covering ground so City surround him with players that can eat up space both in front and behind him. It's quite simple but Rice hasn't been getting that of late and I don't know at what point Arteta is going to give up on the experiment of using Havertz in midfield which is quite clearly never going to work at the top level.
     
  5. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    Football really is strange game at times, Bayern signed the Serie A defender of the year for £50m Kim Min-Jae and Dier as a 4th choice Loan to buy for £5m (derided by many people in England). And its the later who's performing and starting at the business end of the UCL. If its a straight fight between Dier and Dunk for the 4th CB slot, I'm not sure why you wouldn't go for Dier given how vastly more experienced he is in big games on the continental and International stage.
     
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  6. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    The pundits all seem to be thinking it’s Konsa for the fourth spot but Dier is in as good form as him.
     
  7. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    The pundits don't know anymore than we do.
     
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  8. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Unless Dier has some standout poor performances from now until the end of the season I can't see Southgate not taking him. Like you say, he has a big game CV that the others don't and is clearly playing well at the top level. Southgate definitely likes him and has generally always picked him when he's playing half decently and from Dier's interview with Gary Neville it seems like he really gets on with the group. From Southgate's perspective it'd probably be one of the easier conversations to have with Dunk and Konsa when leaving them out if he emphasises the fact Dier is putting in top performances in the latter stages of the UCL. I think they'd have to understand his decision.
     
  9. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Dunk will but Konsa has a Villa fanbase who hate Southgate and will be very vocal if both their players are left out. Dier also has an image problem in that he is linked in with the likes of Henderson in the eyes of a lot of people.
     
  10. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Yes, I’m sure these issues is something Southgate will think very hard about. I mean he will not want to upset the Villa fans after all :whistling:
     
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  11. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    They are clearly talking about conversations with individual players not the fanbase/online discourse, I can assure you Southgate is not think about how fanbases will react when picking the squad.
     
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  12. MrBoombastic

    MrBoombastic Member

    England
    Nov 10, 2020
    Southgate has to make his own decisions but I think it would be a mistake bringing Dier back in despite how surprisingly well he's done at Bayern. Spurs got rid because he was too slow and couldn't play in a high line. They wouldn't even play him when they had all four of their back four out injured.
     
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  13. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    Would be a massive mistake if England play a high line as we simply don't have the personnel to play it.

    That's why I have no issue with Dier being the 4th CB choice over Dunk, who is equally incapable of playing in a high line.
     
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  14. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I don't see us playing a high line. We can't play one with Stones/Maguire which is Southgate's first choice partnership so I don't see why Dier being there would be any different.
     
  15. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    #15740 Inter Row Z, Apr 18, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2024
    Maybe I'm basking in the afterglow of England's Euro Under 21 triumph too much, but I genuinely thought that Levi Colwill was going to add a whole new dimension to our defence this season. Fitness and being played out of position have pretty much scuppered that of course, but the idea that Southgate might now be taking Eric Dier to the Euros instead just feels like one massive backwards step.
     
  16. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    Sure but you have to deal with the realities, Colwill has played about half a dozen games as a conventional CB all season, Poch's use of Colwill at LB for the first half of the season was stupid considering he had Maatsen and Cucarrella in reserve for most of that time.

    By the way I don't really care if Dier goes or not, was more arguing he should be ahead of Dunk who Southgate seems fixated with for the past 6 months (seemingly out of nowhere).
     
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  17. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    A few of us debated on here whether or not re-signing with Chelsea was the best idea and for this season at least it appears like it wasn't. I still think he'll make it there if and end up a regular in the England squad if he keeps fit but I'm also hoping they end up having to sell him for FFP reasons. As much as anything I think it's better for him to be away from Chelsea because he's a tad injury prone and we know how players like that fare there.
     
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  18. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    As opposed to the third goalkeeper debate, I do think the 4th centre-back conversation has a decent bit of value. We know how injury prone Stones is, and Maguire has had his fair share of injuries this season too. With Guehi also coming off the back of an injury I don't think it's out of the question that whoever the 4th choice centre-back is sees minutes in this tournament, and possibly significant ones.
     
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  19. MrBoombastic

    MrBoombastic Member

    England
    Nov 10, 2020
    I agree Dunk can't play it either, but I don't think he's going to the Euros.

    It seems to be a Konsa v Dier debate, in which case I'd go Konsa. And if it's not him I'd take Tomori, Colwill or Gomez over Dier.

    I just don't think Dier should suddenly go based off a few performances, albeit for a very good team.
     
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  20. MrBoombastic

    MrBoombastic Member

    England
    Nov 10, 2020
    I just think if Dier came in we've already got one defender in Maguire who can barely run, we don't need another.
     
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  21. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Definitely, and it's dependent on whether UEFA go for 23 or 26 man squads.
    If it's 23, you need versatility somewhere in your defence, and that's usually having a 4th CB who can cover FB or go with 3 CBs and someone who's primarily a DM or FB who but can play CB to a decent level.
    If it's 26, then there's more flexibility and you can take a pure CB as 4th without much worry.
     
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  22. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Sure but if the system is already built to negate that weakness then it shouldn't be any more an issue with Dier than it would be with Maguire.
     
  23. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    It would be weird if Dier wins the Champions League but Dunk gets the nod ahead of him. Dier has actually been a decent player for England in the past too. Dunk on the other hand seems to make a major error every time he pulls on the shirt.
     
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  24. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    I tell you what, those pesky Germans are starting to come good at just the wrong time for England's liking.

    Two teams into the CL semis. A third, Leverkusen, arguably the best club side in Europe right now. A new young superstar in Florian Wirtz. Toni Kroos coming out of retirement to link up with Gundogan and Musiala. And home advantage in the Euros to boot. My money's still on our boys but that momentum is kind of worrying.
     
  25. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    #15750 Fireburn47, Apr 18, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2024
    I think if Germany win the FA might feel we need a German manager and hire Flick or Tuchel.

    Tuchel seems to be a cup specialist.
     

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