England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'England' started by BarryfromEastenders, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    #12476 Fireburn47, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
    To be fair Dier came on for Maguire against Iran when he needed to be subbed off and a rest replacement for Stones against Senegal and had the match against France gone to extra time he might have come on because of the late injury to Stones (Grealish came on for one last shot at trying to score). It was Coady who was the spare part - Dier was the third choice centre back.

    I think Southgate would have took Toney but the mood music at that time was very hostile against that - the chair of sport and culture committee in Parliament was speaking out against him going because of his gambling investigation. That sort of pressure is hard for the FA to avoid.
     
  2. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Regardless it still proves the point. We took five centre-backs to that tournament and two of them didn't play a minute.
     
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  3. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    #12478 MrSnrub, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
    if we’re being fair, 5 centre backs was the norm for the 26 man squads. Southgate was hardly unique for that.

    it’s inevitable in a 26 man squad there’ll be some players without minutes, usually in a 23 man squad also. I don’t think Maddison and Gallagher made it on the pitch either, I imagine for training purposes the extra centre back is helpful.
     
  4. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    A lot took five, but Argentina, Brazil, Portugal & Spain only took four CBs to Qatar. Definitely there will be players who don't get minutes but in those cases Maddison was injured and Gallagher seemed like a needless selection with Henderson already there.

    What I'm saying is I think an extra midfielder or forward is more likely to see impactful minutes than an extra defender, injuries not permitting, due to the necessity of different profiles in those areas of the pitch depending on the game state. Defensive selections tend to be the most rigid, especially at CB.
     
  5. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    This isn't fully accurate, Argentina took 9 defenders also - Foyth plays full back nowadays but he's also a centre back by trade, just like White who also wouldn't be a centre back by the same criteria. Spain on paper took 4 "on paper" centre backs, but they played Rodri at centre back all tournament, so effectively they took 5 centre backs.

    To me it seems kind of hypercritical to actually criticize Southgate for this. I think its a valid perspective that you could get away with 4 centre backs, but equally he did what almost every other manager would do and the effective gain of the extra attacker when there were already so many spots is just really nitpicking to me.

    Southgate certainly has his flaws but the kind of hyperfocus for every single decision seems unfair. It's reasonable to have different point of views but at the same time, it seems unfair to actually criticise him for things like this, and other minor squad selection things. It's the same when people argue greatly about fringe squad selections between players there's really not a great deal between.
     
  6. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
     
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  7. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Henderson. Mitchell, Hughes and Wharton start for Crystal Palace. Ozoh, Johnstone, Ward, Tomkins and Clyne are on the bench.

    Chilwell, Madueke, Gallagher and Palmer start for Chelsea. Chukwuemeka, Sterling, Chalobah, Colwill and Gilchrist are on the bench
     
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  8. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    Interested to see Wharton tonight. He's a class player. Hopefully he steps up
     
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  9. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    Is this the night that Rover's legendary prediction (from April 2023) really starts to catch fire? Good luck mate:)
     
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  10. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I know what you're saying, but I do think in this particular instance it's different.

    France, for example, have a proven winning formula that involves taking just a few reliable midfielders, who are shown to be tournament-winning worthy, while stacking elite centre-backs.

    We have a clear and gaping hole in our team that's been our undoing on multiple occasions at the top level (a proper ball player in midfield) so any seemingly superfluous selections he makes in other areas while failing to address the team's real issue are going to be, and should be imo, highlighted.

    I don't personally think the fact that some other nations do the same is enough reason to not criticise it when we have needs that those other sides don't.
     
  11. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    But which is the "proper ball player" we've been leaving out of squads for an extra central defender? It's that part I don't understand. I don't think we've ever left anyone who would really have changed England's fortunes in the last 3 tournaments. I don't expect it to happen this time either.
     
  12. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    #12487 horrisengleton, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
    Angel Gomes should've been tried a long time ago, same with Curtis Jones. Jones would be a gaping omission if left out this time. We can keep repeatedly putting Henderson in this position perpetually by claiming there's nobody else when there is, and we're not going to see a remotely different outcome unless something is tried. We saw him look like a fish out of water against Croatia in 2018 in his prime so an innovative, forward-thinking approach for a different avenue should've started then.

    I don't think we need to put Iniesta there for it to make a significant difference. A midfielder who's comfortable with their back to the opposition goal who can also make a few line-breaking passes would make a massive difference to us and would make our buildup far less predictable.
     
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  13. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    I do wonder if Jones will make it next month.

    I am not confident Southgate is even looking at making any midfield changes and is genuinely thinking Henderson or Phillips are currently the best available options to start.
     
  14. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    #12489 MrSnrub, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
    Again I'd struggle to agree they "should" have been tried. Could? I guess. I don't think till this point Gomes or Jones have been people knocking the door down though. Gomes youth reputation seems to do a lot of heavy lifting for his current reputation among certain fans, and Jones maybe will be in that category come the March games, but till recently he's been struggling for club minutes. Bar a good end to last season he's simply not been playing.

    The Henderson stuff is overblown. He didn't start a game in Euro 2020, and despite Phillips being injured in the world cup, England tried to use Bellingham instead of Henderson deeper, Henderson only coming in after a decent sub appearance and then doing well in the next couple starting. Even despite that, he was still dropped for the Italy game the following March (neither did he start against them in October either). I think Southgate likes him around the squad, but I don't see much evidence he's so set on him as a starter in spite of everyone else.
     
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  15. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    He's done ok
     
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  16. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    I think it’s because he might well be in notably better form than Phillips next month or even by the Euros. Phillips needs to be performing well for West Ham because making weekly sub par performances is arguably worse than 18 months of barely playing at al.
     
  17. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    I mean this is all relative to the level they're playing, its interesting Phillips said Southgate told him to stay in the premier league because the standard of competition is higher. I assume it hasn't escaped his notice that Eredivisie is a comparatively weak league. Certainly better than Saudi Arabia, but being "alright" in Eredivise is not saying much.

    If Jones stays in the Liverpool side, I'd be very surprised if he's not in the next England squad and starting in one of the friendlies. He's very much in the mold of what Southgate tends to like in midfielders.
     
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  18. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    #12493 Fireburn47, Feb 12, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
    True. If Phillips can get some starts and look confident he can easily overtake Henderson’s form. After West Ham’s performance yesterday he might well start next week just to freshen things up.
     
  19. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Gallagher scores for the second Chelsea match on the trot.
     
  20. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    Cole palmer 2 assists Gallagher 2 goals. Been a good weekend for English midfielders
     
  21. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Gallagher scores again for Chelsea. Palmer assists.

    Gallagher seems to love scoring against Crystal Palace.

    Roy Hodgson to be sacked? Or will he survive another match?

    And a second assist for Palmer. Helping his chances of being selected against Maddison or Grealish?
     
  22. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    1757163422674833767 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  23. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    That's wrong. He only has 2 goals this season
     
  24. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    I hope he takes all 3. Imagine having maddison Grealish Palmer off the bench
     
  25. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I think in our midfield we have such exceptional DM and 10 profiles we just need a connector and that has been ignored for a while now.

    I hope you're right re: Henderson. It just feels like he's taken on an increasingly prominent role after taking a backseat at Euro 2021 despite declining as a player, and with Phillips' involvement looking very uncertain I do think some of the concerns are valid.
     
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