Which is why it's important to stop oneself from blaming "Argentina" or "o futebol argentino" or even AFA. I don't consider Tapia a moral man, but I doubt he personally instructed or implied to those four players to lie on the forms. If they did lie and it sure appears they did, they did that on their own. Scaloni, Messi, Tapia, Alberto Rodriguez, the old man selling sausages sandwiches in the Buenos Aires street corner.... what was their role in this? None. This is about four adults who provided false information. if it is as it appears to be, they did this to themselves, and if FIFA/TAS determine that was the case, I could see FIFA/TAS issuing a sanction on AFA and the Argentine national team - not on those four players per se.
I don't doubt AFA here. They may have been wrong on the documents, but CBF and Anvisa had the power to do things here and failed to communicate, coordinate, act earlier, etc. That's why this is such an embarrassment.
Ok, so complying to the agreement wasn't possible anymore for CBF, that's what you're saying? Those same players were entering Brazil without quarantine during the copa one month ago. Did something change? Now, did CBF bother informing Conmebol and Argentina about said changes? About the rest: yes, it's evident they were in the UK. What our delegation is arguing is that they didn't lie about it (not saying I believe them in this, I would need to see the forms in question for that).
It's important for me to know if the exemptions to enter were in place (I'm reading all kinds of contradictory information about that), because, why lie if you were going to enter anyway?
As I wrote above, live during Globo's broadcast, Antonio Barra Torres said that there was a series of failures to comply by the Argentines. "Chegamos a esse ponto porque tudo aquilo que a Anvisa orientou antes não foi cumprido. Esses jogadores tiveram orientação de ficarem isolados para serem deportados. O isolamento poderia ser até mesmo no hotel. Mas isso não foi cumprido. Eles entraram em campo ainda. Ha uma sequência de descumprimentos." Jean Gorinchteyn, secretary of the Health Ministry of São Paulo state, said before the match: "Ninguém esta a margem disso, nem eu. E imprescindível que todas as medidas sanitárias sejam cumpridas para garantir segurança a todos - a outros jogadores, a colaboradores e ao público. Os jogadores não poderiam jogar, por determinação da Anvisa e do Ministério da Saúde. Ainda mais vindo de areas em que o vírus ainda circula de forma intensa, como é o caso da Inglaterra, nao e possível que a quarentena seja deixada de lado. Nenhum item de seguranca é eliminado." Brazilian authorities tried to isolate the four players twice before the match. The first time happened in the hotel where the Argentine delegation was staying. The second was at the stadium; here, the Argentines refused to allow authorities inside the locker room. Why didn't they let authorities in? It's not as if they were torcedores with weapons ready to break their legs. Why weren't they allowed in? Were they hiding something?
What I am saying is that the law is clear. Perhaps - PERHAPS - there was miscommunication that filtered down to the players of your team about the inter-federational agreement. And there may be a disconnect between what CBF, AFA, etc. agreed and what civil government branches do. Ombak earlier mentioned bureaucrats. They do what they're told and they follow their job descriptions. They may have been unaware of any such inter-federational agreement. More to follow for sure. Much will be revealed, I speculate. As for what you wrote about the continental tournament: that tournament started on June 11. The law which applies here is dated June 23. EDIT: now the confusion becomes understandable. This inter-federational agreement you speak of preceded the June 23 law.
This was outside of CBFs hands. Unless you believe they were involved. Honestly I will refrain from providing an opinion until more info comes out.
I get all that, and AFA is wrong not to listen to those warnings. But it also tells me Anvisa weren't trying as hard as their press statement implies they should have. This was very foreseeable. Also, the Argentines went in and out of the locker room to warm up. There were opportunities to do this in a better way.
Ok, but just a thing: our team during the copa was making camp in Argentina actually and traveling to Brazil the day before every match. Only exception was after the semifinal, when they decided to stay in Brazil before going to Rio. I refuse to believe all of this wasn't well known among all parties beforehand, would be outrageous.
I actually agree with you. It's a very messy situation, and if FIFA/TAS chooses to sanction Argentina (whether with a L and 3 points given to Brazil and/or a suspension of players, this will all lead to a hostile reception for Brazil when it's our turn to visit them in November - I'm not saying they'll go out of their way to harm us, but I can see why they're upset).
Yes, I get that but if why does it seem like AFA and Conmebol were completely unaware about this issue? Something doesn't add up.
Look at the dates. The 2020-2021 Premier League season ended on May 23, and only Chelsea and Manchester City were in activity beyond that (May 29 - Champions' League final). Between May 23 and May 29, 18 and 12 days respectively transpired until the June 10 announcement by your team's manager of the roster for the tournament held in Brazil. Even if those players had remained in the UK all that time, once they were capped, they went to your country to train. It was during training that they learned the tournament had been moved to Brazil. By the time your team debuted in the tournament against Chile, 22 and 16 days respectively had passed since any of the roster's members had been in the UK. But even so, the law went into effect on June 23. That means that 31 and 25 days respectively had passed since any of your team's players had played for their respective FA sides - and that's assuming they remained in England up to the day Scaloni called them for the Copa América. They did not, however. Emiliano Martínez, Cristian Romero played for your team on June 4 and 8 against Chile and at Colombia in WCQ; Giovani Lo Celso played in the second match. Which means they left England sometime in either late May or in early June - and this is BEFORE the June 23 law went into effect.
So according to CONMEBOL rules, the host country needs to make arrangements to receive the visiting team. Or else, the game shall be played in neutral ground. So from that perspective, it's CBFs job to know this info about quarantine and pass it along to CONMEBOL and AFA. It's not hard to believe that they were incompetent enough to have overlooked that piece of information creating this shit fest. I don't believe in this conspiracy of we don't want to lose at home so lets create this whole circus.
A Anvisa tem botado bastante as asinhas pra fora nos ultimos tempos. No comeco do ano eles ja haviam rejeitado a vacina do Putin com uma alegacao esquisita de que que o adenovirus que carregava a vacina tinha a capacidade de se multiplicar, de acordo com as observacoes que haviam feito em laboratorio. Agora essa presepada de interromper o jogo quando tiveram outras oportunidades de intervir. Essa quarentena parece que e o sonho realizado de todo burocrata e todo menial worker complexado de ser bully uma vez na vida.
Anvisa director on argentine TV a while ago: everyone coming from UK has to quarantine, even brazilian citizens. He then gets asked about Willian and Andreas Pereira and says that if they didn't quarantine they broke the law too. Then I go to Twitter and see brazilians writing that brazilian citizens are exempt from this. Like, wtf? The Anvisa guy ignores the law or what?
Here is another reason why this is a theater. Had Brazilian players playing in EPL clubs not been barred by their clubs from playing, they would have travelled to Brazil and wouldn't have to do any quarantine. Now, there is a discussion as to if currently a Brazilian citizen has to do quarantine coming from England as a foreigner does. Another note is that neither Willian nor Andreas Pereira, both of which arrived from England did any quarantining after signing up for Corinthians and Flamengo. They went straight to training and Pereira even played a game. These are known people ... so why isn't Anvisa on their case ? Is this all because the Argie players supposedly lied on their immigration forms. Essa história ta muito mal contada.
Anvisa released a statement detailing the sequence of events. In summary, they detected on Friday that the Argie players omitted in their immigration form the fact that they were in England less than 14 days ago. They reported that info into whatever system they have to alert authorities. This part is important if true regarding the question as to why they waited until game time to act because AFA is saying why did they wait so long to tell them (I am not buying this story) ... Anvisa said they had a meeting with AFA, CBF, and CONMEBOL yesterday informing them that the 4 players had to be quarantined and then leave the country. Even with that recommendation / alert, they were informed that the players practiced normally later in the day. They better be able to prove that this meeting occurred because somebody is definitely lying since CBF said that everything was fine. This morning they contacted Federal Police to help enact the quarantine order and tried to do so from the hotel all the way to the stadium.
It has now been publicized that a member of Brazil's federal police and an agent from Sanitary Vigilance arrived at the stadium at around 3:30pm local time. There, they headed to the delegations' access gate on the first floor and then went to the visiting team's locker room to inform them that the four players would not be allowed to step onto the pitch. The order was not followed. The match then started (4:00pm local time) and the confusion followed. Shock troop officers and Military Police officers also went to the locker room, but the visiting team resisted and did not permit them to enter. Roughly one hour later, the visiting team's coaching staff, which was at the stadium's 9th floor, and other staff employees went to the 1st floor; by now, they had been notified that the visiting team's delegation was going to leave. Journalists who were on-site witnessing the events were forcibly removed from the locale, with profanity being uttered by CBF's communications management and other representatives of CBF. While it's clear, therefore, that it would have been better for Anvisa to try to get the four players out before today (at the latest), they did try one last time to do it before the match. But the visiting team, by now aware that the four players were not to play, fielded them nonetheless. If the account above is factually correct, then the teams headed to the pitch with the visiting team aware that the four were under some kind of sanction which would prevent them from playing. The Argentine team however (again, if this account is factually correct) disregarded the circumstances.
If this is true, as you said, then Anvisa indeed better have proof of this meeting with AFA, CBF, and CONMEBOL. It clarifies things.
What were the MPs doing during warm up and anthems? Eating some snacks? Why werent they already at the hotel entrance ready to catch them before they take the bus to the stadium? Why did Anvisa wait until today's morning to contact police? Also eating snacks all saturday?
Not sure about the first questions. As for the last one, I imagine they gave AFA a guideline to follow. You have to wait for them to break it before you start enacting active measures.
I don't get why give so much warning. Wasn't the crime already commited (false declaration)? Shouldn't they be deported right away for that? Also, I read on the argentina thread that their passports were CHECKED at the airport and they had UK stamps? And they weren't stopped or even told anything right there???? They are all either the world's most inept bureaucrats or this was a planned show.
Giving them some leeway given the situation ? In UK if you do this by the way, it's a hefty fine and possibly jail time. They had been to Argentina, Venezuela before Brazil. Not sure how often immigration employees that check passports all day start looking for 2,3,4 stamps back in the chain.
See, I agree with you, ultimately. Let's say the players committed this violation, which by all indications they did. And let's say the custom officer misses it. So far, understandable. And let's say that normal civilians would be warned to stay in the hotel or asked to leave the country. Fair enough. But knowing that these players are scheduled to play on Sunday, it would be at best naîve to just wait and see. Of course, according to Anvisa they did in fact warn everyone, not just AFA, so that changes things a little, but I still think Anvisa failed to handle this properly.