PBP: EFLC - Manchester United FC vs West Ham United FC - Sep 22 , 2021 [R]

Donny van de Beek always wants the ball and constantly plays progressive passes through the lines. Ole has to use him more. pic.twitter.com/Xa9i4KqTOn

— UnitedReds (@UnitedRedscom) September 22, 2021

A good summary of Donny's play today. Whether it is viable and enough at all times and vs any type of oppo, I don't know and remains to be seen.
But there are games where he can be useful and need to figure more prominently in. It's only saying so much in defeat but he definitely was one of the better performers on the day for me. Can only hope (perhaps against hope) that Ole will have taken notice...

 

Yeah, League Cup is pretty much the only tournament where we could afford to give a bunch of fringe players some minutes. Now the best case scenario is us winning the next 4 CL games and resting all regulars for the last game against Young Boys or wait for Christmas/New Years where we have 3 games in 5 days.

 

You’re being a little unfair on the goal. The ball was deflected and that’s how the assist happened. If it wasn’t deflected, I think donny would have intercepted the ball and prevented #20 from scoring.

 

We werent outnumbered there - Lindelof went to the guy Telles let go and Bailly went to Lindelof guy.

The danger was Lanzini in the middle who Donny left. It was a costly mistake IMO and one that ultimately cost us the game. I understand some people are high on Donny which is fine but some balance is needed - especially given it was an oppo B team.

I like what Donny does on the ball, however on defence at this level he has some issues. He tends to chase the ball rather than cutting out passing lanes and his defensive positioning is lacking. Passing lanes and defensive positioning are pretty critical for playing pivot.

That said, with Fred current form especially he should get more minutes. He is clearly better on the ball and has upside on his distribution. He should also spot Bruno @10 more. The messiah to our central midfield problems though he aint

 

Agree that Donny was part to blame for the goal. He left the most dangerous player to double the guy with the ball that had nowhere to go but the middle.

That said, I disagree on criticizing Donny from a defensive standpoint outside that goal. Every time Donny gets a shot playing deeper he's paired with Matic. While Matic does take-up better positions than McFred, he covers a tenth of the ground and is a lamppost when the opposing team is countering. That puts a lot on Donny's shoulders and I think he did well to stomp out a couple counters with well times tackles. Tackles that Fred and McT don't make.

Donny was also very good in possession and his movement off the ball makes things easier for everyone around him similar to what Jesse does for the front 3. Even though Donny is not a 6, I saw nothing today that tells me he wouldn't do a better job as a 8/6 than either of McFred are doing.

 

It seems to me that every time we discuss a goal conceded we look at whose fault it is when the opposition shoots the ball. I was livid with the defending of Sancho and Telles against Fredericks. The guy is a second string full back that played in the Championship a couple of seasons ago and he gets passed you like he is Cafu. That pissed me off.

I thought Martial was good with the amount of touches he had. I do not think he could have done anymore he did not really have that many chances except in the first half where he hit it from the outside of the foot (similar to the Greenwood had in the second half).

Lingard was so f*cking selfish as a #10. He only wanted to pass the ball to Sancho, he dismissed DVB and Dalot many a times when they were in a better position.

We bought Sancho to be penetrative with his dribbling, he needs to do that first then try to create after the opposition is in shambles trying to cover space. He is playing almost like a 10 from the wing. You see glimpses when he is really deep on the flanks that he can be a threat using his dribbling.

Lindelof is still sh*t, he is the guy that worries me every time the ball is near him.

Bailly had an excellent game, ate everything up in front of him. For once I felt comfortable on conceding corners, his head was everywhere.

Dalot is good, he needs to take more risk when delivering the ball, he is trying to play assured but it is so obvious that it is defeating the purpose of a full back that high up.

Finally Matic, he is a toss up some days he is on some days he isn't. We need a 6.

 

Martial was garbage. He was static as hell and he should've had a goal. I've lost my patient with him.

 

Judging the game, I feel you have to divide it into three.

The middle of the game after they scored you could argue our midfield did ok. I am sure Donny and Matic stats are good - given we were behind for around 80 mins. However that lacks context as West Ham could sit back and let us have possession.

Critically our midfield though when the score was 0-0 (first 10) was not competitive - West Ham B team were all over us at Old Trafford up to the goal. That should be a cause for concern. As should the nature of the goal - a free man left by our midfield central in front of goal (not the level of goal our competitors concede).

Last 10 we were chasing a cup game, so had to take risks. The sight though of old man Noble who played the 90 catching us on the break and nearly scoring was kinda embarrassing.

 

You are watching him with wanting him to prove something when he does not have service. He is not a target men or finisher a la Ronnie.

 

Then he’s nothing because he sure as ******** doesn’t dribble anymore

 

He did dribble. Actually had nice touches. Mind you I don't think we played badly. We were not effective in the final third with enough clear opportunities that come from incisive penetrating.

 

No penalty here? Alright then, good to know. Even with no VAR, I imagine that Moss, given his positioning (or one of his assistants at least) should have spotted what is a clear foul.


Then to top it off, Noble labels Lingard a diver...

 

The movement, the effort/desire from Martial were not up to snuff. Not sure what is up with him, whether his match fitness may not be where he wants it to be or it's something else.
But for a guy who is fighting for a place on the team, that is not good enough. He'll get opportunities again down the line but this is frankly a bit worrisome at this point.
He looks a shell of the player he's been at his best with United: that is the main problem for him. Even more so when the competition for places (whether it's centrally or on the left) is only going to get hotter soon.

 

I've defending Martial on these forums more than almost anyone, but he's been objectively awful for over a year. Nobody is expecting him to be a target forward. But he didn't run the channels, when he did drift wide he just stood out there. He didn't run at defenders with the ball. He didn't do anything really. He was just a body.

What I want to see is the old Martial that plays neat 1-2s with those around him, that has great close control, that drives at defenders, and gets in good scoring positions. He did none of that.

 

Donny van de Beek was out of position a couple of times. He chased the ball rather than held his position a couple of times. These things are true.

They have been much, much more true of Fred and McTominay over the past couple of seasons. West Ham scored their previous goal against us due to a midfielder gambling on closing down the obvious threat rather than holding position. Fred’s Utd career is defined by his gambling on where the ball’s going to go and getting caught ahead of the ball by a simple turn or 1-2.

By contrast VDB’s positioning yesterday was consistently (not exclusively) very good. He swept up possession several times just by being in the right place. He didn’t leave huge exposed gaps behind him as we have become accustomed to. He was strong in the tackle with his new physique, and his game on the ball showed the benefit of having someone technically precise and schooled in possession play, over someone like Fred who is much more comfortable winning the ball back than keeping it.

(Yes, yes, “they are not the standard we should be judging by”, Cliches 3:18. Well they’re what we’ve got right now along with Pogba who is famous for his positional indiscipline - and any midfielder we sign is more likely to play the Matic role in yesterday’s line-up than the VDB role, so I’m gonna keep talking about the real world here.)

And he still got to push up into the front line because Dalot was often tucking into the 2 in the 2-2-6, and Donny was scanning to check that he could push up. Finally! Now he just needs to be joining a front line that doesn’t have Martial minding his own business and Lingard selfishly heroballing rather than use his teammates.

The main argument against Donny, besides the positioning flaws he’s obviously improved significantly, has always been that he’s too safe with the ball. Well it was clear he was keen to address that yesterday - much like McTominay in the previous game, he was drastically improved with his verticality and should have had an assist for an excellent forward goal pass through the defence.


I’ll fully accept that he went towards the ball rather than holding his position and trusting Lindelof & Bailly. But that’s not a fundamental failing of a player who just doesn’t get what he should be doing - that’s decision making in the spur of the moment that you associate with a player who isn’t getting match time. His actual positioning there was great, until his inexperience in the role and his eagerness to do well in a rare start led to a poor split second decision.

I was dead against VDB in the pivot last season, and I still think he’s much better higher up in a well coordinated, technical front line with two others as playmakers. He cannot be our most defensive pivot either - not a chance. But he’s making great strides and certainly deserves to be in regular rotation, angling for a starting spot when we intend to have most of the ball. And that’s before we consider how poor Fred has been this season.

 

Agreed. My point is I don't think he was the worst from the lot yesterday nor the best. Meh like everybody else. Ole's post match sums it up.

 

His beautiful pass to Greenwood sums his make up as a player and performance yesterday. I hope we see him against Villa.

 

As RVN said, for a guy that's 3rd in the pecking order and trying to prove he deserves more minutes, meh isn't enough.

And if I'm being totally honest, I can't remember anyone that was worse than him other than Mata and Tellas.

 

Matic? Lindelof?

 

This lose is on Ole and it is a big one. Now less games to keep the backups fresh and involved.

 

Lol. I need more from him as well, he will come good. My hope is that since he came to United he never had competition for his spot, he almost played because we had no one else, and even if he played we were not the best team.

Today he has the competition to beat the best striker group we have had since he came on and if he does start he is starting for the best attacking team in the world. If that does not motivates him, I do not know what will.

He has until the end of the year to earn his future here. I could easily see him playing for PSG with Neymar and Messi after Mbappe leaves.