Dutch Clubs In Europe: General Discussion

More an more I am thinking about Willems changing positions. Not what people on TV have in mind and put him on the wing, but I see him as a half player in a point to the back system, like they play at Ajax. He is a too good footballer for a back. His passing over the ground is maybe one of the best in the Netherlands. He sees windows to pass into and then also have the ability to do so. He can turn out of pressure situations and maintain ball possession. He is maybe even more capable to play box to box than Fer, while being a much better footballer. Could add so much power to a midfield. What is that kid doing at left back?

 

The good thing is that we have 2 great wingers now in Depay and Robben. We should enjoy the time that we saw them both together on the field together.

The only thing about Depay is that he is pretty retarded in his interviews. He always makes me cringe. It's not far off Vilhena who must be among the worst speakers in world football. Maybe not a coïncidence that they are close friends.

 

Though Maher should never be likened to Sneijder. Sneijder carried us to a WC final and gave the cutting pass to win it after winning the triple for Inter. Sneijder stands for the opposite of what Maher stands for. Sneijder stands for big game performances and Maher stands for folding when he feels a raindrop landing on his tiny nose. The one is an alpha male the other scared mouse.

I understand what you tried to say though and the analogy was fun to read.

 

No it is not. This guy came in the NT, when the climate was toxic, when we were on the brink of being defeated for an end tournament again and who made a player like Davids immediately play in an assistant role to him. We lost away against Scotland (with Sneijder in the stance) and one can say, we would always beaten Scotland at home, but the forces in play with the old group where such that we could have lost at home vs Scotland IMO. An 18 or 19 year old Sneijder took the team on his shoulders and scored the early opening goal that set things in motion. He changed that sense of apathy and powerlessness around the NT, being as young as he was. Back then, Sneijder was 1 or even 2 years younger than Maher. Maher is 21, Sneijder was 19 IIRC. There is a huge contrast between those 2 players from a mental perspective. Also quality wise of course. Sneijder turned up for the NT from being a little kid and never stopped doing so, even when it became difficult (situation or own decline).


I feel that Sneijder and Robben (the other alpha male) were the ones that injected a believe in this generation that winning a trophy was really possible. The miss from Robben in the WC final was more about quality. Robben does miss those chances (he can be quite wasteful with chances) and Casillas always having had that toe poach save in him. I also saw it in an Italy friendly after the WC. It is a trait of him. Robben just keeps on going and had a great WC in 2014. The goal that did not happen vs Argentina is another issue of quality. If that first touch before entering the box is right, then that is a goal. Now Mascherano could still save it.


2 great players.

Sneijder is one of the line of players that made the most out of a certain quality he has. You can call that opportunistic, but for me that is just making sense. If a player does not have a dribble, but does possess a distance shot and is generally deployed in a spot that will result in being a lot around and on the edge of the 18 yard box, then of course shooting from distance is advisable to pick up as a skill to hone as much as possible. In his Ajax days I was annoyed by how many chances he took, but it resulted in a level that payed out for them and the NT. He invested in himself. It is not like he will not give a through pass if the opportunity is there. Sneijder has distributed and put in beautiful passes to set other up plenty. Afellay also tried to score from distance vs Kazakhstan and I don't blame him for his second ring attempts. The last shot went in, by a deflection. Opportunistic one may say, but important for the NT. I think you will rebuttle with saying that Afellay can also dribble and has a broader mosaïc of skills in his locker, being a jack of all trades, but he is a master of none. Sneijder at his top had quality's in his locker for what one could call him master. Sneijder was the best 10 to orchestrate a quick counter attack. From having the ball to playing it beatiful into a man beating window for an attacker to benefit from. This counter trait from him, maybe leads you to call him opportunistic. I call it beauty. I am not purist that will look at players with one set of filters. I can enjoy outliers in different categories.


However for me Sneijder has also been an excellent distributer of the ball higher up. At one point Sneijder was for me a player that saw solutions on the field that I did not see when watching the game. When I saw him later in his career vs Hungary away, when Clasie was in his semi debut phase, I was stunned by the gap between the silk level of Sneijder and that of Clasie. I thought it was closer, but Sneijder looked so much more smooth, while he was quite sloppy in his passing there. It was not about the passing accuracy, but the overall class of handling the ball and moving it on.

You don't mention the context. Before the WC there were some nice friendly, but once we got into the WC, we became super conservative. Bert played with a block of 6 players and the 4 on top were almost left alone to find the solution. In the group round the teams bunkered against us and it was very hard to find the solution. It was also a boring WC compared to the last WC. In this difficult situation, Sneijder still found a way to get the 3 points vs Japan. No the game was not great or any player was great, but when a player delivers you a horse, you don't look in the mouth of the horse. Winning the opening match is very important. Was the ball on Robben vs Slovakia not also from Sneijder by the way? The goals vs Brazil is a typical thing that can happen when you have a player in the team that believes he and his team deserve the victory and starts throwing things into the kitchen sink. You look at Sneijder's header as a goal that should not have happened, for me it is another example of a player that brings believe to the team. What was little Sneijder thinking he could achieve in the box right there? On the edge of the box he could maybe convert from a rebound with a distance shot. However he just stood there and headed it in. Brilliant. Audacity rewarded. See how many teams in SA are conditioned to act differently when facing Brazil and are kind of already beaten before facing them. Why did Colombia lose to them in the WC and also recently in a friendly? Why does Netherlands beat Brazil in 2 consecutive WC"s? Sneijder kind of thinking. Not being afraid for the yellow shirt, standing in the keeper box next to guys that are all bigger than him and head it in. That goal is a nice little metaphor actually for what I try to point out. What was Sneijder thinking to go stand there in the first place?

2010 must be seen in the context of conservative football tactics which put an awful lot of pressure on the front 4 to deliver. Sneijder did. It was not an initiative rich team that gave the front 4 a lot to work with. In this desert, Sneijder still found a way to bring us to the final. To then call that opportunistic, while the tactics demanded to pull off miracles is for me being ungrateful about something great that happened. I think Sneijder did a great job given the circumstances.


To equate Sneijder to a player like Iniesta is like toying with a frame of reference. Sure, he is not like this player, or that player, he is Sneijder with his quality set and that is not as narrow as you paint the picture. He was a marvelous football hub that could also accelerate the game speed and that found the football solution very quickly. He is an architect player that needs movement around him and did not bring so much himself. If you don't like this, then you will not like Ziyech so much either, who moves towards the same profile. It is a profile and Sneijder reached a very high level in that production line plus gave me and I hope many others wonderful memories'. I truly enjoyed Sneijder.

Gio had a perfect ending of his career, but many good players don't get such an ending.

You are free to choose your own memory's about a player. Neither your or my memory's are a full and perfect representation about what a player has done for the team. You remember Zidane vs Brazil, another his headbutt. It depends. I have very different memory's from 2014, starting with that great pass on Robben vs Spain. The most heartwarming thing was what he said though. He called himself a worker in the form he was in. A player with big pride and that has meant so much for the NT. Must really love to play for country. Contrast that with the previous generation that looked so blazé when having to turn up for the NT. Sneijder is in decline and he put himself in service of the team, humbling himself. What a player. He missed a penalty (he at least took one, there were also players that did not want to take one), but I remember him for that wonderful volley he put in vs Mexico to equalize. The greatest thing about that goal was what he said against Vlaar before the corner was taken. He told Vlaar that this corner would end in a goal and gave him certain instructions in line with this prediction. It became a goal and he scored it. How great is that? Such moments add to a feeling in the group that they are a team of destiny. Van Gaal also said that he never managed such a cohesive fighting group, Sneijder being part of that.

"People". What people and why would "people" hold the truth? Comment sections are full of people with biases and that base opinions on few games. I have seen all games from Seedorf in the NT and all games of Sneijder and I would not have to think a split second for choosing between them if it comes to the Orange shirt. I go for Sneijder every time, certainly on 10 (the position Seedorf wanted so badly, but was not good enough for to really make his own). Now Sneijder is on decline, while seedorf had a long club career also after 30, adding to his mystique. That also has to do with physique, just look at Seedorf. I do not see a long career for Sneijder after 30. What has Madrid or Milan to do with the NT though? Hazard is great for Chelsea, what has he done for Belgian NT compared to that? Analogues to this I felt that Seedorf always brought the tempo down when playing for the NT. I suspected at one point that his ego was so big that he brought the tempo down on purpose, just to show people that he was the metronome and center of the team. That this indirect approach hurted the team and the achievement was of less importance to Clarence. His ego was so big, that he wanted to play on 10 in 1996, rather than Bergkamp (a brilliant 10). He and his buddy Davids blew that whole tournament up. Race issues, money issues, personal ego. Talking about a generation that did not fulfill their potential. Figure this: The mediocre team of 2014 still did better than anything that the Seedorf generation did. They became fourth in 1998, while this team beat Brazil in Brazil with 3-0. Sneijder being a big personality in the dressing room, was able to put his ego below the team and called himself a worker. Seedorf would never do that. Also, if you remember Sneijder for a missed penalty in the final, then that has consequences for how you remember Seedorf also. You can not just pick up one end of the stick.

I am actually somebody who is not a purist and fluctuates in taste. I don't understand how people can watch Barca football all year around. I like Apple pie, but not every week. I like direct play, but not every day. People eat a different dish during the week, then how is that not with football? Same with music. You say you don't like crosses and I understand that, but if it is followed up by a header from Dzeko like he did vs Spurs some years ago in a 4-0 drubbing IIRC, then I would not want to have missed out on that. Beautiful header from a cross. Likewise, RvP at the WC with his header against Spain was an iconic moment. There is beauty in that and am happy to have seen it.


I have never experienced Sneijder as boring. His exquisite passing and ways to open things up gave me often enough a rush of adrenaline. Man beating passes have that effect and Sneijder knew how to send those in. At the start of his career people were wondering if his ego would hurt the team, but it the opposite happened. His self confidence and believe spilled over and affected others to take on the enterprise. Sneijder saw an opening that others did not. After a certain game Marco van Basten was even blown away by Sneijder. He played and worked with great players, was one himself, but for the NT he thought Sneijder was one of the finest midfielders he ever seen. Zlatan was in awe of Sneijder after the group stage at Euro 2008. "What has that little men become good at Madrid". His first season Sneijder was awesome for Madrid. They also won the title, partly thanks to him. His second season, with the divorce and all, was not good. Must say that he was also deployed in a wrong way. Sneijder must be the architect of a team and dictate play. That has also had it's negative effects on RvP for example. However there have been enough opportunities for others to prove the team should be build around them. They never proved they could turn up for us as Sneijder did. For me Sneijder did not so much disappear (2014 is not a good example to characterize Sneijder). Sneijder has been extremely dominant for the NT. Attacking intentions went through him. He was the hub. That is the Sneijder I remember and in my eyes he is one of the true greats of the Orange shirt.


Cheers

 

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Looking forward to your concerns about players (not only regarding Sneijder). I personally think a much bigger proportion of any football debate should involve exchanging observations from actual game play. So I encourage this initiative obviously.