Duane Holmes thread

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by superdave, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You and I are on the same page on both guys. Players like him and Arriola free up players like Pulisic. They make the pressing game work.

    There's an interesting mixture of insight and insanity in the Berhalter critiques. The one player GGG gets criticized for overlooking that I most agree with is Holmes.

    Squad selection for Euros during the season is complicated; you never know if we don't call in a player because we don't rate him or because it would have a negative impact on his club status. But ain't no doubt Holmes is better than most of the MLSers GGG trots out there in central midfield. From what little I've seen of Holmes I think he's ideal for us when we run the 4-3-3. "Well rounded" is a great description.
     
  2. wixson7

    wixson7 Member+

    May 12, 2009
    boulder
    Every touch

    1201209518270689280 is not a valid tweet id
     
  3. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I watched the all-touch video. The guy doesn't slow down all game. It's impressive. He works really hard and is a tough dude. Some of his dribbles are really good, but I can't help but wonder if he gets away with some in the Championship that he wouldn't at a higher level--balls that he just barely manages to get to first (at a "hey, wreck my leg" pace, no less) were pretty regular occurrences in that video. I still look at him and see a guy who should play on the wing--a little to wild with his dribbling to take up the 8.
     
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  4. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like he played decent, but a few of those dribbling attempts and passes were pretty dicey. So he'd fit right in with our cm!

    Maybe he should replace the under-performing Roldan in the utility, emergency starter role. But those suggesting he's the solution to our woes are really pushing it. He's not at an ability-level befitting of a USNT regular, imo.
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    He could be an alternative to Roldan, not an upgrade.
     
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  6. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's less that he's "the solution" and more that he deserves a chance over Roldan at this point. Same for Green.

    They literally can't be less productive, so there's no harm in giving them a shot.
     
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  7. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What Holmes has that Roldan lacks is speed, quickness, dribbling ability and therefore the ability to pull defenses out of shape. Better option off the bench than Roldan it would seem, if you need more in the attack in any case.
     
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  8. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. But I've heard some suggestion he be a starter now, or maybe even when everybody is available, and that's a great exaggeration imo.

    He probably tops out as a solid Championship level player. Our standard for starters is considerably higher than that at this point. It's guys who fit in top 4-5 leagues or who are standouts in 2nd tier leagues like the Championship or MLS so potentially could play at a higher level when given the opportunity in the future. Holmes doesn't fit that description to me, unlike say a Jordan Morris or Antonee Robinson does. Holmes is Arriola of cm. He's starting rn, but should be a utility/end of roster/emergency starter type too, imo.
     
  9. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea FC
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Roldan, Baird, Lovitz and a host of others have the potential to play at a higher level? That’s news to me.
     
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  10. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's news to me I made such a claim. Gregg isn't God when it comes to viable pool options. I pay close attention to MLS for USNT prospects, and I'd never even heard of Lovitz before he was invited to January camp, then remained with the squad ever since. He's been in the league for 5 years.
     
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  11. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea FC
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    You said that’s the standard for starters for the USA. Roldan and Lovitz have been starters for periods over the last year, and I don’t think either of them meet that standard.
     
  12. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 thedukeofsoccer, Dec 1, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
    Again, Gregg is not the arbiter of what constitutes the best xi or 23. He's prioritizing his flawed system, getting a group in early to learn it and sticking w/ them, beholden to a board with conflicts of interests, and has his own personal biases.

    Holmes' competition when everyone's healthy should be: Adams, McKennie, Pomykal, Lletget, Parks, Yueill, Aaronson, Morales, etc. Adams, McKennie, and Morales are regulars in top 4-5 leagues. Pomykal will be if health affords and he gets a few senior team caps first. 1-2 may be or probably could. Confident Holmes is legitimately behind several on that list.
     
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  13. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I'd argue that skills an in form (and healthy) Green bring are more unique than what Holmes bring. I put Holmes in the Morales boat (I guess I'm straying into Nats talk here, so mods, feel free to delete if it's out of bounds.) Both are very decent, but not that different from what we have - and not substantially better.

    That said, I don't think Roldan is an upgrade on what we could have either.

    But Lleget seems to me could easily stamp something on competitions the level of this game.
     
  14. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    Except for the part where he's literally the arbiter of the XI or 23 who actually get to play, and others' theoretical best XI never see the pitch outside their dreams.
     
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  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I agree with you for obvious reasons, I also understand what @thedukeofsoccer is saying. There's not a person on BS that thinks Baird or Lovitz belong anywhere close to this team (though it looks like Baird may be out). Ever. Lovitz can hardly keep a contract in MLS.
     
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  16. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member

    Oct 14, 2007
    I didn’t know Holmes so I watched the weekend game. It made me even more depressed about how thoroughly Berhalter is destroying the USMNT’s future. Holmes looked like a contender for that possession/creation midfielder combo role.
     
  17. Smileton

    Smileton Member

    Feb 7, 2012
    Richmond, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He sure looked like an upgrade in the Jamaica friendly in June. He replaced Roldan and made an immediate, positive impact.
     
  18. ChicagoVT

    ChicagoVT Member

    United States
    Jun 26, 2019
    agree 100%. Not sure how someone could watch Holmes and Roldan play and think Holmes isn't a sure fire upgrade to Roldan. Holmes may not be the answer for the USMNT team but, he surely deserves a chance to beat out Roldan. 3G's unwillingness to try different players when his current players are obviously underperforming is a huge problem and unnecessarily handcuffing this program. oh well... glad Duane is putting in strong performances for Derby... too bad 3G isn't watching
     
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  19. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those guys are not really starters when everyone is available. Though a case can be made for Lovitz.
     
  20. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea FC
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    I guess it’s yet to be seen. There have been other midfielders available, and Berhalter has still continued to chose Roldan over them.
     
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  21. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup... and it is a problem. It seems to me like there is some sort of MLS quota because there really is no logical reason why Lovtiz continues to get calls and a player of Holmes' quality can't even get a crack at beating out someone as pedestrian as Roldan.... or get a shot at playing the #6. It boggles the mind.

    At any rate, back to specifics regarding Holmes... What I really like about him is that his challenges are really clinical at times. IMO, one of the biggest weaknesses I see with US players is the inability to intercept the ball cleanly. As an example, I really like Weston... but when he misses a tackle he often gets totally off-balanced because he is over-stabbing at the ball instead of just poking at it. I see Brooks do this all the time one-on-one for Wolfsburg... and these are two of our very best defensive-minded players.

    Now, I have only seen Holmes play a couple of times... but when you add in the all-touch videos I have seen I think I can safely say he would be one of our 3 or 4 best midfielders. He has pace, good vision on his passes, is dynamic on the counter and plays a very physically demanding position in arguably the most physical league in the world. Why is he not getting an opportunity?
     
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  22. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A bad case.

    Lovitz is a USL-level player who is left-footed. That's his "case", presented without any references to the many pieces of evidence proving that he's nowhere near good enough to be a starter on the MNT.
     
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  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could be misunderstanding your post, which could be simply commenting on Lovitz's role on the team vs. Baird et al, in which case, sorry, I mostly agree. I read it as if you suggested that a case could be made for Lovitz's inclusion on the team.

    Lovitz is higher on the depth chart and has had a bigger role on the team than those other guys, and you could make a case that he's closer to a starter on this team. Of course, I think that's really bad and an indictment of 3G's talent evaluation.
     
  24. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are at least a few MLS left backs that most around here agree should get calls over Lovitz. No one knows what in hell GB sees in the guy. Hollingshead and Lima, who still gets called but gets no PT, should easily be ahead of Lovitz. It's not due to "the MLS quota" that Berhalter keeps making that choice.

    I agree with your second paragraph; really good description of Holmes' tackling ability.

    Since I've never seen anything other than the minutes he got for the US and some all-touches videos, I can't really speak to his positioning. How does he look? He's got pace and hard-nosed defending and the ability to open up defenses (with his dribbling at least), but the positioning and passing and calm under pressure is crucial to the 6. I'd have to watch his club games to have any idea. I'd love to hear about it from anyone who does watch them.

    Even at the 8 spot, I think he's too wild and out of control to play centrally. But, maybe he makes up for that with his boundless energy and scrappiness. I don't know. Would be nice to see him get another call next window.
     
  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Holmes's skillset is different from Roldan's, though with some overlap. Biggest difference is Holmes would be suited to Lletget's role in the Canada game.
     

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