Does this qualify as violent conduct? [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Kebbie Gazauzkas, Oct 15, 2010.

  1. Kebbie Gazauzkas

    FC Krasnodar
    Bulgaria
    Mar 29, 2007
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Bulgaria
    From the thrilling encounter between Belgium and Austria:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77jGFUFf6ng"]YouTube - EURO 2012 Qualifiers - Belgium vs. Austria[/ame]

    I wasn't observant enough to notice this myself, but I decided to raise the issue after reading some of the youtube comments.

    3:40-3:44

    Nicholas Lombaerts heads in the corner to give Belgium a 4:3 lead (this happens in the 90th minute) and turns to celebrate, but is immediately tripped by Austria's number 17 (Florian Klein).

    Btw, Klein was already on a yellow (booking received in the 83rd minute of the game).

    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro2012/matches/season=2012/round=15171/match=2002127/index.html

    I have to admit that I found the whole situation to be rather funny, but should any action have been taken against the Austrian footballer? A second yellow or a straight red would have meant the Austrians being reduced to 9 men, which could have prevented their late equalizer.

    Scharner from the Austrian team had already received his marching orders for violent conduct (in the 68th minute, after throwing Vertonghen to the ground).

    2:26-2:50
     
  2. Mopa

    Mopa New Member

    Nov 25, 2009
    Second yellow. Not violent, just unsporting.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's actually #22, Stefan Maierhofer, that trips the goal-scorer. Of course, he was on a yellow, too, so the point is somewhat moot.

    This is a tough one. On the one hand, it's not really "violent." It's petulant and unsporting. Common sense would say yellow card.

    But this is a kick-out at a dead ball stoppage. And enough contact is clearly made to trip the opponent without any simulation on the Belgian's behalf. How many times to we see red cards for extremely weak kick-outs? Beckham in 98 is the most prominent example. Add to this the fact that the trip was most entirely unexpected--there was no confrontation that would lead the victim to prepare for the incident.

    By our instructions and the standards we've been held to recently, is this a red card? I think it might be. A referee certainly couldn't be faulted for showing red if he caught it. But then you go back to common sense... team just scored, the Belgians don't seem to care at all about the incident, late in the game and it's already 11 v 10, plus we don't know what other borderline stuff has been let go in the match... is this red card really necessary in context? That's an entirely different argument.
     
  4. refmedic

    refmedic Member

    Sep 22, 2008
    If Austria goes down to 9 men because of this, do they score the equalizing goal? The outcome of the match was affected.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The outcome of the match can be affected by any VC decision.

    That doesn't mean you still don't take context into account.

    Based on the expectations of the players in that match and the way the game had been called for 90+ minutes, was that VC? We don't know. You have to admit this isn't a clear-cut decision either way, right? Or would you argue that this should always be a red?
     
  6. refmedic

    refmedic Member

    Sep 22, 2008
    I would argue that it is at least a yellow. I will concede that it may not have been a red in this match, but it is definitely a yellow. Wasn't he already on a yellow? Second yellow, red card, Austria is playing with 9. If the referee does his job (IMO) by handling misconduct on a dead ball, then more than likely, Belgium win 4:3. I agree that any VC decision can effect the outcome of the game, but this referee's inaction may have CHANGED the outcome of the game.
     
  7. rippingood

    rippingood Member

    Feb 13, 2004
    LosAngeles
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Just to give someone the opportunity to say the ATR doesn't apply here...

    The ATR has this in USB:
    Commits an act... lack of respect for the game ( e.g., aggressive attitude, inflammatory behavior, ...)

    So, it could be USB (hence YC, hence 2 YC, hence adios) but the opponents clearly didn't get inflamed so perhaps that is all that is needed to confirm that the YC wasn't warranted.
     
  8. Kebbie Gazauzkas

    FC Krasnodar
    Bulgaria
    Mar 29, 2007
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Bulgaria
    Thank you all for the responses!

    @Mopa, good point, I would have most likely deemed a yellow card to be sufficient (and there is the distant possibility that the culprit was just stretching his leg/unable to get out of the way).

    @MassachusettsRef, thanks for the detailed response. Yes, it was very hard to see, but you are right that Maierhofer was the who was responsible. I think that the referee failed to notice the situation (not that anyone could blame him for that), but a red card could have been harsh (and probably not appropriate given the nature of the game). If Lombaerts had made a meal out of it (e.g. like in the case of Diego Simeone), then the match official would have probably consulted with his assistant and produced a caution or a red card.
    @rippingood is right that Lombaers probably didn't think much of it (and did not feel the need to involve the referee or retaliate).

    @refmedic, it's indeed possible that the outcome of the game was affected (if Maierhofer's trip had resulted in a red card, then perhaps one or two more minutes would have been lost in arguments/protests) and it would have been even more difficult for the Austrians to find an equalizer. On the plus side, I don't think that any of the Belgians feel hard done by due to this (probable) omission.
     
  9. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    All great points.

    I tend to lean towards red.

    This is one of those, "this is for being a dick" cards.
     
  10. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    If you think about what the referee and assistant are doing at that moment, I would guess this is one of those situations where nobody will see it, even it being in plain view.

    The referee is probably looking to the AR for goal confirmation. The AR is probably going up the line and making eye contact with the referee. Neither will be looking for or expecting any nonsense like what happened. Maybe the 4th catches it.

    Overall, it's just one of those cruddy situations where something bad happens but other responsibilities at the time draw our attention away from it. I know we're supposed to be looking for junk after a goal, but typically we're going to look to confirm the goal with one another first...
     
  11. glutenfreebaker

    Oct 3, 2009
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really don't see this as violent. It looked like a stupid, childish trip to me. He goes down pretty hard (well, not hard, maybe fast is a better word) because he's running and off guard. It seems like the same sort of situation as a dead ball pushing match, or something like that. My gut reaction was that it was unsporting.


    I really want to put this in a misconduct report some day.
     
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