Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Which player in your opinion can be considered in the goat conversation?

 

Short answer:

Yes.

As much as I love Messi, he does have too many failures, and unfortunately he rarely ever has delivered results in the Champions League, whenever Barcelona is not in full flight.

Diego Maradona was a more complete player than Messi; Maradona was a better 'goat' candidate than Messi, in my view.

As a human being, as a parent, and as a role model, Messi appears to be far superior; but as a player, Maradona was more complete, superior in terms of malleability or tactical fluidity, which allowed him to be better than Messi in the many situations that were anything less than ideal.

At any rate, I think Messi should be considered as one of the great 3 players of all time, but I wouldn't consider him the actual greatest of all time.

 

I don't care to compare players of different eras to be honest.

Messi is the best player of this era by a comfortable margin to me. He's the best that I've seen and I've been watching since the late 90's. The most complete player bar none.

Too many failures? Absolutely not. He's one of the most accomplished players in history. Him coming up short was really his team coming up short like 95% of the time. To those who say he doesn't come up big in big games. Copa America 2016 .. ok he missed a PK. He also made a PK in 2015 also against Chile and they still lost. He made a PK in 2011 against Uruguay and they still lost. He played well against Brazil in 2019 and they still lost. Looking at the game by pinning team failures on individuals is very shortsighted. I'd be willing to bet that Messi has far fewer "bad games" in actuality than just about any player in history. There is some serious result bias at work here.

Not a diss against Maradona or anything and again different eras so comparisons are tough but apart from the 1986 WC which is still one tournament... what else did Maradona accomplish in his career to put him over Messi... Are we going to act like one tournament is everything for 15-year long careers?

 

It's not the lack of failures that you judge a player by. I've always felt that THE Goat moniker for Messi was premature, but I would never disqualify a player on the basis of failures. He had to do something right to be in those positions.
However, you are touching upon something important - which is the GOAT is as much about narrative and trophies as individual ability. He is not the number 1 goat in my eyes as similar caliber players have a fuller trophy set and achievement set.

 

Partly right, partly untrue. Compared to his contemporary Cristiano he has not delivered as much in high pressure moments. These are the facts.

 

Ronaldo 'Destroyed' Atletico Madrid.

The problem with your argument here, as I see it of course, is that Cristiano always, and I mean always, delivers his better form against teams that are in clear decline; Cristiano's extraordinary longevity allows him to stay around long enough, to exploit teams in decline.

Extraordinary longevity allows Cristiano to exploit the demonstrable decline of top tier teams that were once great, and are still perceived as great, even when the decline is self-evident.

For example, Cristiano never proved to be a great goal scorer against Atletico Madrid pre-2017; then after 2016, Atletico Madrid was repeatedly, almost as a routine, destroyed by Cristiano, but at this point Atletico Madrid was simply not the same team anymore.

1. Atletico Madrid was dismantled by Cristiano and Real Madrid in 2016/17.

2. Atletico Madrid was eliminated in the group stage in 2017/18.

3. Atletico Madrid was destroyed by Ronaldo again in 2018/19.

4. Atletico Madrid was eliminated by Leipzig in 2019/20.

At any rate, that is not the Atletico Madrid of 2013/14 and 2015/16; not by a long shot.



Ronaldo 'Destroyed' Juventus.

A very similar case, if not an identical case, in terms of Cristiano's iconic performance vs. Juventus 2017/18.

Juventus 2017/18 results in the Champions League, when playing against top tier opponents:

0 - 3 defeat vs. Barcelona (Group Stage).

0 - 3 defeat vs. Real Madrid (Quarter Finals).

3 - 4 defeat on aggregate vs. Real Madrid (Quarter Finals).

3 - 7 aggregate defeat for Juventus.

Barcelona's result after 2 games in the group stage, is identical to Real Madrid's result after 1 game in the quarter finals; all the while, Barcelona's result after 2 games in the group stage, is actually better than Real Madrid's aggregate result after the two legs of the quarter finals.

But yeah, Ronaldo did it when it mattered, and Messi only did it in the group stage... Of course, Messi also completed approximately 5 times more dribbling runs than poacher-esque Ronaldo, which is why Messi cannot exclusively 'save' himself for quarter finals, the way Ronaldo could, since Ronaldo was not really risking nor over-extending his physique; versus Messi who was risking his body at all times, as he almost single-handedly carried Barcelona to another La Liga title.

Juventus was an overrated team. Juventus still is an overrated team. Ronaldo fans conveniently ignored that when Ronaldo scored the 3 goals; but of course, Ronaldo fans are now completely on board with the demonstrable fact that Juve is in fact an overrated team.



Ronaldo 'Destroyed' Spain.

And on a similar note, Cristiano scored 3 goals against Spain at World Cup 2018, but Spain has a disastrous defensive record since World Cup 2014.

Spain's record since and including World Cup 2014, in competitive tournaments only, and against top tier national teams only:

1 - 5 defeat vs. Netherlands (World Cup 2014).

0 - 2 defeat vs. Chile (World Cup 2014).

1 - 2 defeat vs. Croatia (Euro 2016).

0 - 2 defeat vs. Italy (Euro 2016).

3 - 3 draw vs. Portugal (World Cup 2018).

2 - 2 draw vs. Morocco (World Cup 2018).

1 - 1 draw vs. Russia (World Cup 2018).

8 - 17 aggregate defeat for Spain.

Spain conceded literally more than double the amount of goals, versus goals scored by Spain.

Ronaldo's Portugal obtained the same exact result as Morocco and Russia; this is literally and objectively what happened...

But then again, in terms of objectivity, it should be noted that Morocco and Russia did not scored the 1-0 goal thanks to a dive by Ronaldo; the VAR should have shown Ronaldo a yellow card for diving, but instead, Portugal received the 1-0 goal from the penalty spot. And still, the fact is that Portugal's actual result was a draw, same as Morocco and Russia.

Ronaldo's Portugal immediately crashed out against a disciplined, basically typical, Uruguay side.

Ronaldo fans again conveniently ignored that Spain is a weak team in recent years, very much including World Cup 2018... Which is why a relatively ordinary Uruguay side, completely nullified Ronaldo, as Portugal was sent home early, in the first knock out game.



Ronaldo 'Won' Euro 2016.

Actually, Ronaldo has played one Euro in his career; Euro 2004, played in Portugal to add... Ronaldo failed to win Euro 2004, even with the extraordinary advantage of playing for the home team.

In sharp contrast, Ronaldo did not really played the Euro Final 2016, which Portugal won without Ronaldo; in fact, this was literally the reversal of what had happened to Portugal at Euro 2004...

Euro Final 2016; Portugal without Ronaldo, wins against the home country France.

Euro Final 2004; Portugal with Ronaldo, and Portugal is the home team, and Portugal does not win against the underdogs Greece.

That is not exactly the stuff of legends...

Argentina cannot even win Copa America Finals with Messi... I mean, just imagine what Argentina, without Messi, would look like versus France 2016.



Ronaldo 'Dominated' The Champions League.

Of course, the other half of the problem, is that Cristiano has benefited from a unique circumstance of Real Madrid consistently advancing in the Semi Finals, as Ronaldo does little or nothing to help Real Madrid.

Ronaldo's mediocre performances in his Champions League Era with Real Madrid and Manchester United:

2. Champions League Semi Finals 2008.

3. Champions League Final 2009.

5. Champions League Semi Finals 2011.

7. Champions League Semi Finals 2013.

9. Champions League Semi Finals 2014.

10. Champions League Final 2014.

11. Champions League Semi Final 2016.

12. Champions League Final 2016.

14. Champions League Semi Finals 2018.

15. Champions League Final 2018.

That is a lot of mediocre performances in the Semi Finals and Finals combined, by the player who allegedly 'dominated' the Champions League.

And furthermore, I have not even adjusted for the fact that the vast majority of the clubs in the Champions League could not realistically compete against Real Madrid or Manchester United, at the time.


When Messi is a non-factor:

1. Barcelona gets eliminated by Inter Milan 2010.

2. Barcelona gets eliminated by Chelsea 2012.

3. Barcelona gets destroyed by Bayern Munich 2013.

4. Barcelona gets eliminated by Atletico Madrid 2014.

5. Barcelona gets eliminated by Atletico Madrid 2016.

6. Barcelona gets eliminated by Roma 2018.

7. Barcelona gets destroyed by Bayern Munich 2020.


When Messi is actually good:

1. Barcelona gets eliminated by Manchester United 2008.

2. Barcelona gets eliminated by Juventus 2017.

3. Barcelona gets eliminated by Liverpool 2019.


At any rate, Cristiano Ronaldo was incredibly fortunate to have played for one of the greatest Real Madrid sides of all time; a unique club, with an unparalleled pedigree or edge at the Champions League.

I still remember the highly rated Valencia of season 1999/00; the Champions League Final was viewed as more or less balanced, Valencia had eliminated Barcelona, and Barcelona was better than Real Madrid was in terms of La Liga form... Real Madrid absolutely dominated the final, and it was clear for the world to see, that pedigree is a real thing indeed; Real Madrid had it; Valencia lacked it.

And to all of the above, you then have to take another extraordinary precaution, as you should at least attempt to adjust for extraordinary luck seemingly always on the side of Ronaldo:

1. John Terry slips as he fails to score the winning penalty kick; Champions League Final 2008.

2. Miraculous 90th minute header goal by Sergio Ramos; Champions League Final 2014.

3. Antoine Griezmann fails to score penalty kick; what would have been the 2-1 goal to win the game; Champions League Final 2016.

4. Mohamed Salah gets injured immediately; Champions League Final 2018.

Cristiano Ronaldo was never an actual rival to Messi, but was lucky that his results could be used to mask the obvious gulf between a true potential 'goat' like Messi, versus Ronaldo who was a generational great with extraordinary luck in the best of cases.

Without the lucky results, would Ronaldo be perceived as an improvement versus Michel Platini?

I very much doubt it... But then again, I think that Platini was a significantly better player in any argument versus Cristiano Ronaldo, so the point itself is somewhat pointless in its originally intended regard, I guess.

But yeah, I just cannot see the merit as to why Cristiano Ronaldo's name should be mentioned in any serious discussion about 'goat' candidates.

 

More or less exactly my point...

I mean, I was not discrediting Messi for the failure of literally the results themselves, instead, I was criticizing Messi for his lack of inventiveness in the handful of games where he was actually neutralized by defensive organization, etc.

Messi vs. France 2018...

Argentina scored a lucky goal 2-1 goal, but Messi did no adjustments at all to his game, and then France was lucky to score 2 extraordinary goals to win the game 4-3.

Messi vs. France 2018 was the type of game that Maradona could have won...

Maradona becomes another midfielder, as he is much better on the defensive end than Messi ever was; but perhaps of even greater importance, is the fact that Maradona was also significantly better than Messi at the art of slowing down the tempo of the game; the ball retention dark arts; the cynical art of collecting 3 or 4 consecutive fouls, with the primary aim of efficiently slowing down and paralyzing the high speed tempo that Kylian Mbappe would need to make his mark on the game.

Maradona is 'goat' at ball retention, and that allows him to do things like paralyzing and/or slowing down the tempo of a game; this is a traditional skill that Messi has never mastered, and especially not against top tier opponents, which is part of the reason why Barcelona gets destroyed... The fact that Messi is credited as some form of technique genius, when in reality, Messi is a genius at slalom dribbling, but not necessarily in terms of ball retention; the importance of this has always been ignored by most fans.

Messi vs. Chelsea 2012...

Same exact case; Maradona would probably find the way of winning this game, versus Messi who continued doing the same thing, again, and again, and again, even failing to score a penalty kick in the process.

The fundamental problem is, in the simplest terms I can conjure; Messi is excessively direct as a player, and a lot of games, and especially the games against opponents who can defend; these games require something other than just Messi single-handedly running at the heart of the defence, to no effect, for the entire 90 minutes of the game.

Ball retention is an elusive art; difficult to put down into a perfect collection of statistics... And Messi, as a flawed man of his era, as a product of his time; he has always lacked in the traditional art of ball retention, and that is the central failure of Messi's Argentina, in my eyes.

The fact that directness, even when you are the greatest direct player of all time; directness always comes with a lot of dispossessions... and a lot of that, when you play for Argentina, can be detrimental, as it tarnishes the tactical cohesion of the team; most probably the 'real' reason why Aguero nor Higuain never looked good next to Messi, even as Messi was supposed to be the great 'playmaker' of the era.

Messi's quick one-two, always very direct, is not a good nor a sound strategy for national sides, as national sides always lack tactical cohesion.

In other words, the many dispossessions that will be generated by Messi's excessively direct playing style; Argentina does not have the defensive skill to compensate for Messi's directness. In this regard, the risk versus reward is not good; Argentina is far more likely to concede goals, versus the highly unlikely chance that Messi will dribble past 2 or 3 defenders as he creates a goal out of nothing.

and aggressive player, but then a lot of games, especially the games against opponents who can defend; these games require something other than just extraordinary directness...

At any rate, Messi has repeatedly demonstrated that he is incapable and/or unwilling to flex his creative ability in the handful of games that require said flexing of the creative invention of this direct player; Maradona never suffered from this flaw; Platini also never suffered from this flaw, and in the context of Argentina, I would imagine that Platini would make great use of Di Maria, which Messi arguably never really did, as it was Di Maria who had to adjust his game to accommodate for Messi's own game.

As much as I love Messi, I just cannot think of him as the greatest of all time, as I think that the greatest of all time should be more complete; more malleable.

 

Well Michael Jordan case for being the basketball GOAT is untouchable imho. There is nothing comparable in soccer...he basically had nothing to point at. Unreachable in my eyes.

 

Off-the-ball can represent even around 2/3 of the impact of one player, so doesn't matter how good he can be on the ball if he is bad off-the-ball or if he literally walks on the pitch then he likely isn't the best and it can be punished in a more equal matches. I particularly fell if Neymar was a good finisher he would be better than Messi, more mobile, inventive and with more character to testify his own person.

If we measure Messi's numbers against more or less equivalent teams, then someone like Cristiano would be at the top when both played at Real Madrid, but I don't think Cristiano is better than Messi. Messi is the best of his generation.

However, I think some guys like Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff (and perhaps some others like Puskas, Di Stefano etc) could stand well against Messi. I particularly feel Pele and Cruyff were at least as good as Messi and probably better in diverse circumstances, Maradona can be as well, but it is complicated to measure different eras.

Pd: and yes there is a certain reason when they say that Messi has a certain predictability in the way he thinks and plays that certainly allows him to be neutralized with a certain frequency by half decent and decent rivals, and when they say that he doesn't handle pressure very well and adverse results, this is quite possible to be correct, just needs to see his body language, also it is probably verifiable by the numbers as well.
Important to remember too that never in history a player had so much talent (in his club) behind him, in a way even playing for him, this is unprecedented, a luxury for almost none, that also could explain his performances in his confort zone (with Barcelona in domestic competitions specially) and with Argentina.

Messi may be very well the most efficent player on the ball in all history when things go right for him, but for me he is not the best, not the most impactful and not the player who can be mythified, extrapolated as much as some others.

 

There is a debate between Lebron and Jordan. Jordan for me is the best.

 

This is just another attempt at a repackaged myth

Ronaldinho 2005/06 vs Milan created 1 clear cut chance
The onus is on you to prove Ronaldinho produced legendary performances in these matches(with timestamps)


Ronaldinho vs chelsea was out of this world?

When/how/where?

Messi 2010/11

Champions league SF/final rounds

1 open play goal
10 completed dribbles
125 touches
4 key passes
100 passes
92% passing accuracy
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/5...-League-2010-2011-Barcelona-Manchester-United


2 open play goals
9 dribbles
87 touches
3 key passes
58 passes
91.4% passing accuracy
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/4...mpions-League-2010-2011-Real-Madrid-Barcelona

7 completed dribbles
97 touches
1 key pass
64 passes
92.2% passing accuracy
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/4...mpions-League-2010-2011-Barcelona-Real-Madrid

La liga El classico


2 assists
9 completed dribbles
2 key passes
58 passes
89.7% passing accuracy
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/434040/LiveStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2010-2011-Barcelona-Real-Madrid

6 completed dribbles
1 key pass
109 touches
89 passes
88.9% passing accuracy
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/434301/LiveStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2010-2011-Real-Madrid-Barcelona

His average over these 5 matches

3 open play goals+2 assists in 5 games (1 goal involvement per match avg)

41 completed dribbles(8.2 completed dribbles per game)

11 key passes(2.2 per game)

398 passes attempted (79.6 passes per game)

Ronaldinho could never do something like this even playing beach football.
please stop with the myths

The bout of form Messi has had since January 2021 is also comprehensively superior to what Ronaldinho/zidane/figo produced In la liga during their respective best phases

And this is well out of his(messis) peak

So forget about his actual peak where he was Maradona 1986 every single match day playing against getafe/zaragoza or real Madrid/Manchester United


There is just nothing similar to this in recorded football history

 

It is good, but I thought it would be better.

He had good stats in terms of goal involvement and key passes (not really impressed, just good numbers), the number of dribbles and touches is overrated by the style and the dominance of Barcelona though, if you see he touched a lot of the ball (more touches = more dribbles and passes), but others touched the ball much more than him, also completed more passes, talking about the ones of Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta, for example. They managed and controlled those games for him.

Maradona in 1986, for example, completed more dribbles, had more shots and key passes with less touches on the ball and without the support Messi had.

Against Inglaterra.... Maradona in 1986 topped in touches, key passes, shots and dribbles: https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches...ational-FIFA-World-Cup-1986-Argentina-England

Messi at his very best wasn't capable to do it. He was less complete and arguably less impactful.

Btw:

🤯 Malcom (1) has scored more goals for Barcelona against Real Madrid than Leo Messi (0) across the last seven matches between the two sides pic.twitter.com/zTjmk7JqsT

— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) April 9, 2021

 

I fear that this thread will end up in an endless discussion over several 100 pages like some others did before.

Problem is that a GOAT discussion in my opinion rather originates from sports like tennis, golf, boxing or in some sense basketball. In these sports, it is far easier to judge sportsmen by success, because they are much more able to influence success in a single (or few)-player sports. I'm convinced that the complexity of a sport exponentially grows with the number of participants (and besides that, the rules). This is the reason why basketball and handball for example which are pretty similar to football by nature and rules (one ball, one target, two teams, a 'box', etc.) rely on attack moves. Meanwhile it is nearly impossible to plan an attacking play in football since there are to many uncertain variables (although there are patterns created for attacking plays).
Hence, a basketball player like MJ can be much more influential on the game and less dependent on his teammates than any footballer.
If someone argues that Messi struggled against defensive minded teams, you could vice versa blame his teammates or his coach for not enabling him to reach his full potential. It is rather easy for teams to defend a player if he is foreseen to be integrated in every attack. That is why Messi played his best with the best teammates and rather struggled in the last few seasons where he had few support in the attack. Same applies even more for the national team that never has the opportunity to implement automatisms in the long run but relies a bit more on the individuals in attack.

So I would only be willing to answer this question if the criteria were very strictly defined.

Is Messi the greatest player ever to enable his team success in single matches at the highest pressure?
Arguably no.

Is Messi the greatest player ever to enable his team dominance in the way that they play their opponents in the long-term?
Arguably yes.

But please stop to argue about the GOAT without defining any criteria. In Basketball you could argue that this is MJ, because he is the greatest icon of the sport, he was technically the best player of his time, and most importantly, he was able to take responsibility in the greatest matches, because the sport basketball itself enabled him to do so rather isolated from what his teammates did. But is impossible to answer it in general in football.

 

What makes inter milan 2009/10 defensive and real Madrid/Manchester United 2010/11 not defensive

And the timestamps for Ronaldinho breaking down Chelsea/Milan

Those timestamps cannot include his outside of the foot goal vs Chelsea 2005 or his trivela pass vs Milan 2006 or his 'solo goal' vs Chelsea 2006


I'm looking for timestamps of Ronaldinho building plays using his "legendary" vision and ball carrying abilities
Examples of slalom dribbling runs into the box with end product (shots on target)



There is one good goal here involving minimal dribbling
One amazing pass/chance or key pass if you will
In 180~ minutes of play

The rest is just theatre ( some nice backheels in uncrowded areas creating minimal to non existent danger)

Ronaldinho is a tier 1 playmaker who created one clear cut 1 vs 1 opportunity in knockout games vs chelsea,Milan and arsenal during the 2005/06 CL

Even if the one successful chance Ronaldinho produced vs Milan was otherworldly guily still had ALOT of work to do to convert that into a goal

Ronaldinho was more theatre than effective across these matches
How he manipulated the ball and retained the ball in high pressure situations were his defining qualities(along with simple passing moves)

As for Dribbling runs into the box,prolific scoring,dictating the flow of the match or producing high quality defense splitting through balls
No defintely no

It's not corroborated by anything

It is likely that Lionel Messi dribbled as much in the SF/final rounds of the 2010/11 champions league(26 completed dribbles in 3 matches)As Ronaldinho did in the entire 2005/06 champions league campaign(12 matches)

Im going on Out on a limb here but if Ronaldinho did dribble more it was probably no more than 5 dribbles(whilst benefiting from playing In 9 more matches)

 

That's very debatable. Messi actually had a larger proportion of Man of the Match performances in big games on both club and international stage.

Messi was MOTM 4 times in 18 CL semifinal and final matches.

2011 Real Madrid SF 1st Leg
2011 Manchester United Final
2015 Bayern Munich SF 1st Leg
2019 Liverpool SF 1st Leg

Ronaldo was MOTM 3 times in 27 CL semifinal and final matches.

2009 Arsenal SF 2nd Leg
2017 Atletico Madrid SF 1st Leg
2017 Juventus Final

Messi was MOTM 6 times in 21 World Cup and Copa knockout matches.

2007 Copa Mexico SF
2014 WC Switzerland R16
2015 Copa Colombia QF
2015 Copa Paraguay SF
2016 Copa Venezuela QF
2016 Copa USA SF

Ronaldo was MOTM 2 times in 16 World Cup and Euro knockout matches.

2004 Euro Netherlands SF
2012 Euro Czech Republic QF
2016 Euro Wales SF

 

I feel like leadleader was making a good point though mate, in saying that those qualities are not useless, because they have an impact on the flow of the game and on the momentum shifts between the teams.

Plus I guess one crucial moment in a game like football in such a tie can be all that is needed in terms of end product sometimes (not all the time, hence Zico's great assist vs Italy in 1982 didn't count for anything in terms of the final result in the end as one example).

I remember when trying a list of best individual games of all-time I hadn't included Ronaldinho at home vs Chelsea in 05/06 (while for example I did put in Messi games like the one vs Man City), but I think it wouldn't be far away and I do recall picking it out for a mention on the best games of best players thread.

 

I don’t know who’s the true GOAT is, but Messi is definitely a GOAT tier player and top 3 player in history.