Mario -- I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't see the Colombia game (I don't think it was televised) and the rating was based on a paltry 26 raters, not surprising given that only 7,000 fans were in attendance. I don't put much stock in Sams Army ratings, but if you do, Mathis' rating post 1992 dropped to 5.01 from 6.04 (and this even includes the fact that he was no longer playing against the most difficult opponents) 2002 and before. Maybe "never" is hyperbole, but it is pretty clear that there is some basis for my opinion that Mathis played a lot worse for the USMNT after he went to Europe. I don't dispute a lot of what you say, particularly that I don't blame Europe for his demise. My point remains that Europe didn't improve him. As for Beasley, it is my opinion that he has played worse since he went to Europe, it is neither true nor false. Beasley played some good games for PSV and even some decent ones for the USMNT. My opinion remains that he played better and better more often for the USMNT before he went to Europe. And my opinion remains that this is the best way to measure whether Europe has improved DMB, which I answer "not yet anyway."
How well a player is playing is of course a matter of opinion but that Beez has fallen down the depth chart of both PSV and the NT as he is just about to enter the prime years of his career is fact.
Please tell me you are kidding! ..... assuming you are not - Please tell me how Beasley has gotten worst? ....because he was horrible at WC while facing arguably - one of the more talented MF's in the world in Ghana, CR, and Italy?.....please do not mention the fact that he was tearing up MLS while playing for the Fire or when he tore up Granada or Barbados or the other carribean powerhouses in QF - and that means that he was better before how can you regress when you have World Class Players like Cocu or Jung-Sil Park to learn from?....or the fact that he regularly plays in CL....making semis one year.... with your idiotic reasoning it's like saying that a collegiate player can not get better in the pros i dont even have the patience to discuss Vanney or Clint.... IT IS that simple - and you are an idiot
"tearing up MLS" is that what that was? you'd be more credible if you actually knew what you were talking about
i was actually a season ticket holder for the Fire from 98 to 03 - and yes he was tearing up MLS - meaning he was the best winger in the league edit even if he was still was homeless man's Bryan Roy (dutch player in Premier league)
wow, you're level headed. I was expecting a comeback in flames. I think it is complicated, it can be hard to judge because diff players fit in with diff teams- PSV was using Beasley well when he was doing well. And Beasley did look better 2 years ago for the US team. But your general idea that it is good to go to better teams, of course, i agree.
learning from a master like Guus (whose resume speaks for itself) - cannot adversely affect a player like Beez in terms of a player development with Beez's poor form as of late (most players go through the a bad spell - even world class) can be attributed to , not transfer to PSV but - lack of confidence (lost his spot in starting XI, new tactics implemented by a new coach, and horrible WC) and off-field troubles if it wasnt for Europe - players like DeMerit, Convey, Henemann, Cherundolo, Gooch, etc. would never be at the level they are now..... going back to Clint's issue - he is one of my favorite players and he needs to go asap as does EJ....(still can't believe MLS turned down Benfica's bid some time ago)
It's not so cut and dried. Some of those players were quite good without Europe. Horrible World Cup? OK you're losing points on my credibility-meter again....
No, I'm not. The world IS complicated. I don't know HOW it happened, I just know it happened. Beasley was bad for the Nats alot farther back than just Germany. There's a reason a player who maybe 2 years ago was challenging Landon for best US player was suddenly being talked about here as a guy that Convey should possibly (or probably) replace. To you, it probably is.
It is a theory that Europe always makes every player better because the coaching is always better and the situation is always right. It's your right to buy and sell this theory, but it's my right to argue that it depends on the player and the circumstances [though you have the right to ridicule my theory all you want]. The list of games that DMB played before and after his transfer to PSV can be found at sams-army.com, along with other sources. I don't have the memory to tell you what my rating would be for each individual game and can only tell you what I said before, IMHO, DMB played more good games and less bad ones before going to PSV than he did after. OK, thanks I will be. Doesn't change my opinion as minnows were played before and after his transfer.
sorry forgot about the glorious assist against Ghana - I can't see real well - is that...hmmm...is that Ronaldinho wearing PSV and US NT shirts....
Are you really so clueless as to think that going to Europe is always good for every player (even in hindsight!)?
obiously - going to Albania's first division is not a good move just because it's in Europe....but vast majority of time it is....how can you not improve if you are not playing with better players?......torching geezers who are playing with their oxygen tanks like Stoichkov, Djoarkaeff or Mattheus will not advance a young player please provide me with an example of your argument
as i mentioned before - there is no doubt that Beez's form is off - but that is not due to the fact that he transferred to PSV - in fact in PSV's first year - he played regularly under Guus and Beez played one of his better games against Mexico in the mauling we administered in 05 (post psv) as for Convey - he was one of the better players in the football championship...last year - there were several games where he CARRIED reading....give convey credit where credit is due....he simply is a better player at the moment.....i am fully expecting for Convey to have a solid season in the premier league (judging from first couple of games this season)
There's so many different things that go into a player's development and every single player's situation is unique. The right level of competition is certainly one factor. And for that one factor, I would think that the best European leagues beat MLS for most top American players. But, there are so many more factors. Things like coaching, training facilities, player motivation and dedication to getting better (which in turn is influenced by a million things), playing opportunities, confidence and success, and I'm certain many more. Individuals are unique and so is each situation. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to maximizing player ability. There are many American players who have shown little to no increase in player production after having gone to Europe. See, for example, Donovan, Beasley, and McBride just to name some of the most prominent and obvious examples. Whether going to Europe helped or hurt their development versus never going is a matter of complete speculation.
One can't say you're wrong, but that's not a terribly realistic proposition for the professional player. They are already playing at a high level. Their technical skills probably don't improve much once they've turned professional. So they're developing physically and mentally (quicker decisions, better vision, understanding tactics more, etc.). Hard for them to really get better during practice, as they're already playing at such a high level. Practice is mostly for maintenance, and there is not a lot of time to try new things. But yeah, it happens. Better to practice than to do nothing at all.
The hyperbole is what I was going after. And which Mathis are we talking about? The 90s MLS player, the 2000-2001 Mathis, the 2002-2004 Mathis, or the 2005-2006 Mathis? Mathis' stock was low at first when he first came to MLS, then went way up, then the ACL tear, then he returned at a lower level than '01 but still high, then he drifted down, then he went back up when he went to Europe, then went way down when he came back. The Mathis ride has been a rollercoaster, a sinusoidal wave. The highest points were when he first went to Hannover and the first half of the 2001 season. Mathis essentially played a half season at Hannover and did very well. That's the point you have to look at. Post-2001-ACL, Mathis was never the same player. Nothing could change that. But he was better at Hannover than he was in MLS 2002-2004. When he stopped playing in games at Hannover, he got worse. Just as he would if he were on the roster for Real SL, the Virginia Beach Mariners, or Stone Mountain Georgia High School. To play's the thing. The Beasley ride is another rollercoaster. There's no question that when he first went to PSV he played great in the '04-'05 season. He definitely improved as a player. But since then he's battled with several serious injuries, has lost playing time and a regular spot, and was played out of position with the National Team. No matter which club pays your salary, if you don't play you get worse. No matter which club pays your salary, if you get injured you get worse, and sometimes it's permanent. If you look at the 8 games Beasley played for the National Team during his '04-'05 season, he had an avg score of 6.0. This was during the heart of qualifying and included the low ratings he got for the Mexico and Panama games in which all the players on the team were irrationally rated severely low. Ignoring those two outliers, his average was 6.6. If you look at the 8 games prior to this when he was in MLS his avg. was 6.19. Let's throw out his Haiti game for the same reason as before, irrationally low score, and you have a 6.48 average. And if you look at the 8 games following his 1st season at PSV, all played in the summer away from his club, he rated 6.23. So based on these scores (and I know they're only Sam's Army scores, they're not perfectly objective, but they do have some merit), there's no basis to say he got worse. As for the past year, you can throw that out. He's has so many injuries, he's had a coaching change, and he's lost his regular place on the team. On top of that he was played on the right side of midfield on the US team where he is not as confident. He didn't just get worse out of the blue. He didn't magically lose ability. He got hurt, was unfit, then struggled to regain his place with a new coach. Then got hurt again, etc., etc. This struggle challenged his confidence. It's the normal cycle for a player, whether he's at Olympiakos, Chivas USA, or Hillsdale College. Beasley will be back to his old form soon.
Nice analysis. Will note that the Clint-o-Whirl was more fun than the Mr. Bease's Wild Ride. And would note that while SA ratings may not be definitive (may be poor), at least they're apples to apples, how essentially the same set of close fans see him over time.
At best, while playing regularly for Hanover, Mathis was close to where he was at the 2002 World Cup. In other words, he was not improved by going to Europe. Once again, it could have been his age, physical form, his attitude, the specifics of the situation in Hanover, whatever -- my only point remains that Europe did not improve him. When he was playing regularly, Mathis regained sharpness which improved his form temporarily,but it didn't improve him as a player. This is the heart of our disagrement. There is no doubt that Beasley had some good games for PSV. But I don't see any evidence that he improved as a player. I put no stock in these ratings, but if you do, his rating is virtually identical (I think it is nutty to throw out a score because it was low, because there was nothing irrational about those scores, he deserved them). My personal opinion, regardless of sams-army.com, is that while Beasley played pretty good right after he went to PSV, he played better before. Just an opinion, but it is mine. My basis is that I trust my own judgment more. If I overeached before, I shouldn't have, my main point remains that Beasley didn't get better, which even sams-army supports. It's not what I am basically arguing. He sucked on the left too. Perphaps, but I still haven't seen any evidence of Europe causing improvement in his particular case.
IMO, Mathis was better in Germany than he ever was in MLS. Now, I don't believe that's because the month of coaching he got when he arrived at Hannover turned him into a complete player. I think his talent had always been obvious when the desire was there, and when he arrived in the 1bund the desire was as high as it had ever been. But, with that desire at a high level, he was able to carve apart better defenses in germany than he'd been carving apart in MLS. Every time he accomplished something, a great pass, a goal, a near miss, he looked great doing it that Spring (heck, his final goal in the autumn was pretty sweet as well). This doesn't go against your argument, as i don't believe he returned to MLS a better player. Far from it. Obviously, Mathis devo was done in MLS. the extent to which he could stretch was better exposed in Germany.