Clint Dempsey. (You know....the subject of this thread. ) I'll add to uniteo's point and say that in the last three WCs our stand-out players have been MLS players... 1998 Hejduk McBride [these two are pretty much the only players I remember getting positive press on their play in that WC.....maybe Eddie Pope also (another MLS player)] 2002 Donovan Beasley McBride (maybe Mathis, Mastroeni, Pope, and Wolff should be added too....and there were several Euro players that stood out as well...Reyna, Stewart, O'Brien, Sanneh, Friedel....where was Eddie Lewis playing at that time? was he in Europe yet?....pretty much the whole team except Agoos, but Donovan, Beasley and McBride shined the brightest I thought) 2006 Dempsey The difference between 2002 and 1998,2006 was attitude and confidence. In 2002 we had it, in 1998 and 2006 we didn't (despite all the statements to the contrary prior to the tournament this year...in retrospect they must have been trying to convince themselves). I've said it before, but it was the fact we were playing on Euro soil....our guys just aren't confident when playing over there (our coaches seem to lose it when we're playing important games over there too). Add to that the fact that Euro teams (any teams really) play better on their home continent and there you have it.
The difference between 2002 and 2006 is that the US didn't win a game. Now, it's possible that was because they lacked confidence. It's also possible that the US: Wasn't as good as in 2002, didn't get the bounces they did in 2002, played better sides than they did in 2002, were taken more seriously than in 2002, were up against a better collection of managers than in 2002, were better in goal than opponsents in 2002, but worse in 2006, lacked any breakout performances (as we got in 2002 from JOB, Sanneh, Mastro, Donovan and friedel), players who should have stepped up (bease and donovan) were horrible. MLS is, IMO, the biggest reason for the US team improvement during the past 10 years. But to say the top performers in this cup is to ignore the not insignificant work done by Gooch, Convey and, in the first two games at least, Reyna).
Holy crap, which World Cup were you watching? Reyna rocked during the second half against Italy and was absolute crap the rest of the time he was on the field. Convey who looked fine later in the Cup, I wanted to run down on the field and slap him around during the second half of the Czech game for pulling his 17 year old run out to the wing and throw your hands in the air - then get all pouty when you don't get the ball act. Gooch - who was an intimidating force when playing well, was involved in much of what went wrong. His early stupid yellow on Nedved forced Pope onto Koller and we know how long that took to turn sour. He was also involved in the lazy sequence that led to the second Czech goal, and he was the one that created the PK that knocked us out of the Cup. I really like Gooch, but I wouldn't sing his World Cup praises too loudly. I'm more or less willing to give you Convey, but Reyna and Gooch were definitely major contributors to what went wrong in June.
I still haven't seen the ghana game, so I can't comment on that, and I only saw the first two games live, so without the advantage of replay, etc., so I may be really off. But, imo, Gooch played pretty well against italy, did a very nice job on toni. I thought reyna played well v CR and Italy. He was composed and controlled, something we seemed to otherwise lack. Convey was the most aggressive attacker we had on the field in the first two games. No one was making front post runs, but they should have been. I thought he and dempsey looked like a nice compliment.
He had a decent Cup but that was mostly in comparison to the rest of his teammates. I mean, it's not like Bayern or Tottenham is making a $10M bid for him based upon his WC performance. It's Charlton with $1.5M ... ho-freakin'-hum. As to the rest - Donovan was the US worst player, Pope second worst. Mastroeni and Pope with red cards. I don't see where and how MLS players stood out. In 2,002, Donovan and Beasley had good performances primarily because they had limited responsibilities, with O'Brien, Sanneh and Reyna assuming the ball control in midfield. This year, Reyna couldn't do it by himself and the US couldn't generate any offense. The Euro based class was not as strong as in 2,002 and the MLS'ers weaknesses were even more pronounced. (The above is not to say that there weren't MLS players who might have done a better job than those who were on the pitch) As to what an All/Mostly-MLS squad is capable of, one could look at the end of the WCQ performances like the one at Guatemala and vs. Panama. They were not very overwhelming.
It's hard to believe there are USA fans out there talking about our World Cup who have not seen all of our games. I'm sure somebody can get you a copy of the game, send me a PM if you don't know anyone who has it.
Part of Dell'Alpa's article that was right on, was that MLS doesn't seem to have a clue on what its players are worth in the transfer market.
That's MLS fanboy logic. The best American players would have been ever better if they played in Europe, and the European-based players would be even worse if they'd stayed in MLS. You think Beasely and Reyna had a bad tournament? Now imagine they were playing for Columbus. America would have been lucky to come away with 0 points.
Based on what? Look, nobody's going to say with a straight face that if all the American players had spent the past 4 years in MLS that we'd be good, but I think you can make a case that in 2006 the Euro-based players didn't play anywhere near expectations (for the most part), and that the MLS players did what was expected of them, with the exception of Donovan. In 2002, the Euro players & MLS players both played much better than we thought going in... So, you might tell us Beasley would have played even worse if he'd stayed in MLS, but I'd be a much happier US fan if I'd seen the 2002 Chicago Fire version of DMB at the 2006 WC, instead of the one we got. All that said, Dempsey would be well served to move to Europe because Dempsey wants to go there. Even if he isn't "falling behind" in MLS, he thinks he is, and that's enough to slow his progress.
Well, let's see.... They weren't as good as in 2002 because they didn't have the confidence they had in 2002.... didn't get the bounces because they weren't as confident...ie they "didn't make their own luck" (at least not good luck anyway)... Played better sides? maybe... I can't argue against your point about managers or wether we were taken more seriously.... If you're arguing that we might have faced better goalkeepers this year as opposed to 2002, I don's see how that matters since we barely got any shots on goal to begin with....barely even took any shots....confidence again. And the lack of "breakout performances" (other than Dempsey) and the lack of players "stepping up" (other than Dempsey) was...again...due to the lack of confidence. And why the lack of confidence? I think it was because we were playing in Europe and we never seem to have confidence there.....every team we've sent over there to play in a WC has fallen apart...IMO due to lack of confidence. (As an example other than this year, in 1998 Sampson lacked confidence in his veteran players and mismanaged the team because of it, the players then lost confidence in the coach and we got the results we did.) I don't ignore the contributions of our Euro players like Reyna, I respect them very much. My point was that our "breakout" performances over the last 3 WCs have been by MLS players for the most part. (Maybe that's because we expected the least from them and they surprised, whereas we expected our Euro players to play well.)
On what do you base this? In the last few years they've sold (at least) JPP, they've sold Convey, they've sold Damani Ralph, they've sold Beasley, they've sold McBride, they've sold Howard. Since they've sold such a high portion of the league's best players, arguing that MLS overvalues its players is nonsensical on its face. So the only thing left is you thinking MLS undervalues its players. But if you think that, then FDA is wrong, not right.
Exactly. The Euro core of the team was past its sell by date. McBride and Reyna both showed their age, JOB was injuried and Lewis was played out of position. DMB was in the worst form of his life, if the WC was in 05 it would have been a completely different story. Dolo and Convey performed pretty much as expected. As far as MLS players went, Dempsey was the only one to make an impact. Conrad was solid, but anyone would have look decent after Pope's display. LD, Wolff, and Johnson added nothing. Do a lot of American players need to play at the highest level in order to move program forward? The answer has to be yes. Right now MLS simply isn't the highest level. As
Seems like this argument should be a lot simpler than everyone is making it out to be: The Premier League is a better league than MLS, there's no doubt about that, so playing in the Premier League against better opposition and with better teammates should make you a better player (assuming that you are capable of progressing as a player). Even if the player doesn't go to one of the top 4 (or 5) leagues in Europe, they can still get excellent competition in the Champions League or the UEFA Cup. Even going to a place where the culture is more geared toward the sport would help (hostile crowds, etc) Oh yeah, and the money helps too...
To improve one must be a 1st choice player. A reserve player advances his game very little unless signed by 16 y/o and grown in the system and culture. Assuming all USMNT or MLS players would improve their game in Europe is fantasy thinking!
one word; Beasely Especially for attacking players there is a lot to be said for 1) being on the field, 2) having responsibility and seeing a lot of the ball, and 3) having success and expecting to have similar success But if you ask me what the difference was between the players who did well and those who were tentative, it was the the players who didn't bring it were the one's whose names were written in ink on the lineup card in February or March, where the guys who had to fight to get (or stay) on the field had that little extra.
"would" But I'm less interested in the theory than the fact. Beasley got worse in Europe, Friedel got better. Mathis got worse in Europe, Convey got better. For whatever reason, the lifetime MLSers tend to be our best players at cups. What does it all mean? I think it means blanket rules on this topic are dumb. YMMV.
Mathis did not implode because of hannover. He imploded because he was ready to implode. It was going to happen in MLS. and again, he played some of his best footie in germany. No doubt about it, he was raising his game and was thrilling. It wasn't about anything in the end other than Mathis. Europe is not a panacea that turns hoofers into Brazilians, but it's hardly a rampaging virus that destroys all players who come into contact with it. the fault lies not in the clubs, but our lack of stars, horatio.
you can't make a blanked definitive policy on this. you have to take each on a case by case basis. but in Dempsey's: HELL YES, he needs to go to Europe to improve!! he has gotten physically and more importantly MENTALLY stagnant in his current setup. he will not get the challenge that he so fervently craves here. he needs to be around a new system, with a new set of ideas, with different players from different backgrounds. he needs to see how THEY operate. the reason he needs it/it will work is because he is open minded enough to listen/learn. AND he's talented enough to grow and flourish. we've had players who didn't fit both criteria: 1. Landon - had the skills, but wasn't willing to listen/learn 2. DMB - willing to learn, but didn't have the required technical skill Dempsey will succeed overseas IMO because he fits both criteria
Beasley and Mathis got better, too. If you go to a top European league and play, you get better. If you ride the bench, you get worse. To play's the thing. Players leaving MLS for Europe need to carefully assess whether or not they will play regularly for the first team.
If Arena played Donovan out of natural position too, he'd have gotten even worse performance. The situation with Beasley was twofold - he was beaten out for the left mid job where Convey and Eddie Lewis were preferred as better crossers and he was out of place as a right mid due to the lack of a right foot. This sort of makes you think that Arena lucked into the proper formation for both Beasley and Donovan when he played them very wide in a 4-5-1/4-3-3 hybrid vs. Portugal. With JOB and Earnie Stewart providing good ball control in the middle (and Pablo playing his preferred d-mid role), Beez and LD excelled in running into space behind the slow Portuguese defenders. Going up early gave the US even a bigger advantage. But with an aging Reyna and injured JOB, Bruce screwed up his formations as much as his assignments on the pitch. Beasley was played out of positon and Donovan has fallen into a funk of his own making, thus the major portion of the speed that the US had was neutralized by the US itself. I'll add that Hiddink played Beasley as a right and occasionally left winger in 4-3-3 and, in those roles, Da Marcus proved to be less effective than PSV starters Aroune Kone and Jefferson Farfan, but he was rarely if ever offered the same formation and the same role for the US. When you play a wing in 4-3-3, you chase passes. When you play a two-way mid in 4-4-2 you have to make passes (and dribbles). Taken out of his element, DMB looked far worse than he would have. The person who took him out of his element was his own coach.
In retrospect the best line up for that team would probably have been: -----------------Beasley----Donovan------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- ---Lewis-------------------------------------Deuce---- -----------------Reyna--------Mastro------------------ ------------------------------------------------------- with Reyna and Mastro playing two-way roles and Deuce-Lewis playing more attacking roles. It's interesting and perhaps instructive that experiments in moving players 'back' in terms of positioning on the field from where they normally play with their respective clubs were underwhelming. Beasley not so good in midfield but better playing more forward in the Ghana game. Donovan. Not so good in central midfield or playing withdrawn forward. Reyna. Sucked when he had to play d-mid in the Ghana game. Lewis. Arena ended up shifting him back up to midfield.
4-3-3 may have looked like : Beasley----------McBride----------Donovan--- -----------------Convey---------------------- --------Lewis--------------------Reyna-------- You're playing Beez as center forward, which is a problem since he can't finish. But I am not sure the above would have been any good either.