delayed cards

Discussion in 'Referee' started by CG, Sep 16, 2003.

  1. CG

    CG Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    I was involved in an incident on Sunday that I would love for other refs to comment on. My team was playing a coed team(my team is also) and I legally(IMHO) shoulder charged a girl on the other team. The ref called a foul and I questioned whether he would have called it had I done it to a man. 5 minutes later our team has another foul called on us and the AR inexplicably allowed the other team to bring on a sub before their free kick. One of our players complained and was given a yellow and then the ref walks over to me and says "I meant to give you one earlier." 5 minutes later he gives me a yellow. I then said, "So you can just give cards whenever you want no matter how long ago the infraction was?" He then proceeds to give me a straight red. There was no profanity, no raised voices. Just questioned why he waited so long to card me and whether that was within the rules. Then after the red, I walked over and apologized and offered my handshake and he just told me to leave the field. What do yall think as referees?
     
  2. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Each referee has their own opinion of unsporting behavior and dissent. Yours sounds a little sensitive. It's his game, and if he's quick with the cards you need to figure it out quickly.

    Yes, he can wait to give a card if the ball is in play. He should then wait until the next stoppage.
    If you get a yellow, the best procedure is to shut up, move on, and remember you're playing with caution. If you get a red, leave the field. The referee has already decided he doesn't want to deal with you anymore. Save the apologies for the next time you see him, and remember he has a quick trigger.
     
  4. Crowdie

    Crowdie New Member

    Jan 23, 2003
    Auckland, New Zealand
    I can't comment on the US situation but down here:

    1)You must issue the card immediately after the incident or at the next stoppage of play
    2) You must show the player the card to his or her face - never to his/her back

    You can't say "I meant to give you one earlier" and take that as a yellow card. I suspect that the referee filed one yellow card incident and a sendoff incident caused by the issuing of a second yellow card. You are certainly within your rights to contest the issuing of the cards and if you were never shown the first yellow then the referee might be asked to explain.

    Crowdie
     
  5. CG

    CG Member

    Jul 25, 2001

    I was shown the yellow but it was 5 minutes after the infraction.
     
  6. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why would you do something like that? The ref already has you on his radar screen and now you go and highlight yourself with a big bullseye. There is only one opinion that matters on the field, that of the person carrying the whistle.
    Perhaps there was an injury? Protest to your league, if you like, but I can guarantee that you'll get nowhere by protesting to the referee.
    Perhaps the ref's full statement was, "I meant to give you one earlier and you've been such a fool since then that you are getting one now."
    The procedure for a send off due to a second caution involves showing the yellow and then showing the red. Mayhap you misunderstood the referee mechanics.
    I think that you should leave the field. :)


    Are you the twit that love_to_play wrote about in game situation? ;)
     
  7. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    pvan4, it does sound to me like he was saying, "you already got one yellow earlier, but I forgot to show it to you, so here's your second for dissent and then here's your red to go along with it".

    Since play was stopped and he didn't show the first yellow, I don't believe it was correct for him to consider that he'd already cautioned you. It sounds like you have grounds for requesting the league to look into it.

    It'll depend upon how he wrote it up in his game report.
     
  8. love to play

    love to play New Member

    Jul 16, 2001
    NC
    Not the same

    NSA - Would not be the same. This guy says he did not curse... The guy I ran off strewed every curse word in the book at me :) Seems same concept though ;-)

    Pvan - Here is my take. You should have left it alone after you got the first one. Turn around and walk away. If you get a yellow for asking about when it is appropriate to sub then you are sure going to pick up a second from the guy if you ask him if he can just issue a card whenever he wants.
    Sometimes as a player you just ahve to read the ref and adjust your game to the way he/she is calling it. Chalk it up to a bad experience and make a mental note if you ever run into the same guy on the field.
     
  9. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just an aside, the LOTG now reads that a send off may be issued for "offensive, insulting, or abusive language and/or gestures." Profanity need not be involved.

    After all, one man's profanity is another man's well-turned phrase. ;)
     
  10. pkCrouse

    pkCrouse New Member

    Apr 15, 2002
    Pennsylvania
    Everyone else hit the appropriate points, so I'll just comment on the handshake issue. Although I have no reason to doubt your sincerity in the gesture, any time a referee sends off a player the referee must be wary of the player's reaction toward the referee or the player's opponents. Accepting the extended hand of a player he has just sent off could result in that referee having to be carted off the field in an ambulance.
     
  11. CG

    CG Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    I'm guessing you are a referee? Why do all referees stick together? I have rarely met a ref who upon hearing about another ref making poor decisions will chastise him. They always look for excuses. I realize in my situation that I should have kept my mouth shut but he should not be able to card me 5 minutes after the offense and contrary to what some of yall say it was a straight red for asking can he card me so long after the original infraction.
     
  12. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hold up, pvan4.

    I don't believe we were blindly sticking up for another referee. In some cases, we were speculating on what could have happened such as what I speculated. And in that case, he would have been wrong. You can't issue a yellow card well after the fact like that (unless it was something that happened during play and it's now finally the furst stoppage -- but that's not your situation). So on one point at least some of us were supporting you.

    As for whether it was a straight red and the reason, you should try to get a copy of the game report submitted to the league. This should make it completely clear.

    Finally, regarding the handshake, pkCrouse is correct. How does he know you're not going to go ballistic on him and use the handshake to sucker punch him? It does happen.
     
  13. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    pvan, the only thing we can really comment on is law application based on scenarios as they are provided. We can't justify nor criticize the decision of a referee, say he is right or wrong, unless we were at the field when the incident occured -- and even that would only be our opinion. The way you write your post it sounds like you are trying to incriminate the referee for doing an injustice and validate your position by our support.

    What I can tell you is that so long as the game has not been stopped and restarted, the referee can go back and issue a card on the play that took place between stoppages. This could mean 5, 10, 15, theoretically even 45 minutes later if there hasn't been a stoppage since the incident requiring the card.

    If the incidents transpired as you described them, the referee needed to issue the caution before restarting the game. As far as the rest of your post, the referee did what he felt he needed to do at the time. We can't comment on it because we weren't there.

    Once you are red carded you need to leave the vicinity of the field immediately -- not spectate the rest of the game, not talk to the refs, not even hang out with your teammates. You are ejected, any role whatsoever of yours in the game is no longer allowed. If a player I gave a red card approached me after the game, I would also include the details of the encounter and persue a much heftier punishment -- even if he just wanted to shake my hand and apologize. Referees don't want to hear apologies and shake hands; we want you to disappear and leave at that. There is nothing personal about it, that is just the easiest way to handle the situation. Next time just leave!
     
  14. Crowdie

    Crowdie New Member

    Jan 23, 2003
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Refs don't chastise other refs for a number of reasons:

    1) They weren't there so they didn't see the incident or the tone of the game (very important)
    2) Chastising refs is the role of the referee inspectors (sorry I couldn't resist)
    3) There are always official channels for coaches who are unhappy with officials to take

    It is unprofessional for a ref to chastise another ref just like a judge will not chastise another judge.

    Crowdie.
     
  15. But Referee

    But Referee New Member

    Jun 16, 2003
    Huh? What? Isn't that what a good percentage of the appellate process is all about, judges overturning judges?
     
  16. Crowdie

    Crowdie New Member

    Jan 23, 2003
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Not in a public forum.

    The other thing to remember is the US judiciary is not politically independent so it probably wasn't a good example to use in an American forum - it would be in a country where there is total separation of the executive and judiciary.

    Crowdie.
     
  17. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Pvan

    First off, we are not sticking up blindly for another referee. We were not there. You are not unbiased. Ergo we can only judge in speculative comments and try to figure out the other side of the story based on our own personal experiences.

    First thing was, when you said "I bet you wouldn't have done that if it wasn't a girl."

    Depending on what you said exactly and how you said it, you would have recieved anywhere from a yellow to a straight red. Why? Because you have challenged the referees authority AND demeaned an opposing player simply because she is a woman. At that point in time, the referee probably thinks that you are someone the referee does not want on the field.

    You never said if he carded you after the next stoppage.. or if there were a number of stoppages in between.

    Then, when you said "You can just card me whenever you want?"

    Yes. That did it. Your fate was sealed. You challenged his authority now twice. The first time, you implied that he treated girls better than boys. The second time, you implied that he was a power monger. At that point, he knows full well he doesn't want you on the field, and he might have reached for the red before showing the second yellow. Or he might have considered it abusive and sent you off straight away.

    The point to remember here is misconduct is misconduct. When you foul someone, keep your mouth shut, because dissent is also misconduct.

    Also, remember that we're seeing only one side of this story. Yours. I would bet the referee would have a very different version to tell us.


    Redcard Leopard
     
  18. CG

    CG Member

    Jul 25, 2001

    There were many stoppages between the infraction and the card and how thin skinned is a ref that can't take a couple of questions albeit loaded. I bet the referees version would be about the same because I am telling it EXACTLY how it happened. I am not saying it's right but most refs put up with way more than this ref who was very insecure.
     
  19. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    pv4, give him the link to the Brasilian girls thread and I'm sure he'll rescind all cards. :)
     
  20. But Referee

    But Referee New Member

    Jun 16, 2003
    Obviously the longer the delay between the specific action and the card, the harder it is to "sell". While I am not necessarily in agreement that what happened was correct, consider this a valuable lesson. The lesson that any good coach should teach players about "reading" the referee. One should almost "play" to the referee. Please read on before that gets taken out of context. There are so many variables in the game of soccer, and the referee is just one more to master. If the pitch is slippery, do you adjust? If they are marking man to man as opposed to zone, do you adjust? If they're strong in the middle and weak on the flanks, do you adjust? If the referee is thin skinned, should you adjust? Absolutely. If you know the referee's thin skinned, why push their buttons? Go with it, adjust to it. Just as their are all sorts of different tolerance levels among players, referees have ALL sorts of tolerance levels as well. It's YOUR job to figure it out and adjust, just as referees "adjust" to the kind of games players want called (after a tackle was the player looking for the foul or "c'mon ref let us play..."). Of course you're always going to get someone that is an extreme example, just don't get into more trouble than you need to. Learn from this one, consider your homework done with this specific referee in that you know what to expect next time. One more variable, ....just like players don't play the same game every time they step on the field, neither do referees. Welcome to the wonderful world of humanity! You know it's quite possible the referee learned something from this game as well.
     
  21. CG

    CG Member

    Jul 25, 2001

    You are 100% right, it is just frustrating to get a card so long after the fact.
     
  22. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    sounds like typical alabama officiating to me pete - i have honestly never seen incompetence and littlemanitis like that before, i was appalled that i was helping to pay some of those people - one dude gave me a yellow when i told him 'good call' after he awarded the other team a FK - i stopped cold and said "FOR WHAT?!?" - he says "you were being a f*&%& smartass" - i say "ummm no i was being honest, that was a tough call" - he threatens to red card me... lovely stuff - another time, a different ref shoved a teammate of mine - i'm not sorry for saying it... these jokers give good refs a bad name and good refs should be appalled as well PERIOD



    yes.... and there are also rules which have been written long in advance - procedure should not be made up on the spot, the ref clearly did not follow the rules - how can this sort of officiating not bother a fellow ref?!? unbelievable...



    and this would be the blindly defending part... the reality is that many refs ARE power mongers - being continually defended by other refs who, as pointed out, were not there with "perhaps this crazy situation occured" garbage doesn't exactly suggest to these people that they need to shape up and it certainly doesn't raise the level of officiating

    ok begin slamming me..... now
     

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