Dean Backpedaling on Israel Already

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Cascarino's Pizzeria, Sep 12, 2003.

  1. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
  2. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Boy, there's an even handed article.

    Besides, it is the same thing Bush the Younger said when he was campaigning.
  3. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Where exactly in that editorial did Dean "backpedal?"
  4. SJFC4ever

    SJFC4ever New Member

    May 12, 2000
    Dean, in effect, equated terrorism with combating it. That's like equating crime with policing, arson with fighting fires. What was he thinking?

    I'm sure that Israel is doing (has done) a little bit more than "policing" the Arab terrorist groups.
  5. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    Finding a thoughtful, insightful, even-handed editorial or article about Israel in the NY papers is impossible.

    I'm sure it would be the sign of the coming of the messiah if one were spotted
  6. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    He's softened his position since making those asinine statements.

    I find this quote disturbing in a post-9/11 world:

    "I don't find it convenient to blame people. Nobody should have violence, ever. But they do, and it's not our place to take sides."

    You're right, Howie! We should treat a stable democratic ally the exact same as an unstable, terrorist-ruled organization. Good thinking. Using the Howie Doctrine, the Taliban should be a partner in the Afghani govt.
  7. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Right. We should rely on Al Jazeera and the Cairo newspapers to give us "fair & balanced" reporting about the Middle East. It's Friday, shouldn't the Protocols of the Elders of Zion be published in one of the Middle East newpapers today?
  8. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Prove it. Your headline and the information you provide are inconsistent.

    I find this one more disturbing:

    "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I
    struck them, and then he instructed me to
    strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am
    determined to solve the problem in the Middle

    I thought Divine Right of Kings was something we left with Old Europe.

    Unless they have oil of course (how else to explain our coddling of the Saudi regime?)

    The Bush Doctrine has worked fine for the Taliban thank you very much.
  9. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    The Saudis are in dire need of b!tch slap. I don't think any admin. will do it however, not just Bush's.
  10. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    This was the guy who was supposed to smoke 'em out, who told them to bring it on, and you're going to give him a pass on the most obvious terrorist state not named Iran in the Middle East?
  11. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Dean backpedaled a bit, saying "this is the same position that the US has had toward Israel for the last 50 yrs." He also said that it was Clinton's stance during his presidency.
  12. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA

    OK - what do YOU suggest we do in regards to S.A.? (besided the usual "we need alternative fuels" - no kidding!)
  13. Blitzz Boy

    Blitzz Boy Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    The West Side
  14. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Looking at the Palestinian issue coldly and pragmatically, we have no national interest in supporting Israel. That's a fact, but politicians can never say it.

    The are moral grounds for supporting Israel. That's it.

    We have a definite national interest in a peaceful Middle East. I doubt, however, that our Israel policy advances that goal.

    If we had a "balanced" approach all along, things may have been different, but unfortunately, we and Israel have had a hand in putting ourselves in the current box with Hamas, which has never accepted any peace proposal. No deal can be struck with them.
  15. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    OK, if we're not allowed to use alternative fuels (which seems like a pretty stupid handicap), we tell Congress and this president to get their noses out the asses of the Big 3 and raise CAFE standards. The only reason we give a damn about the Saudis is because of their black gold, and they obviously don't give a damn about us, so we hit them where it hurts.

    That's for starters.
  16. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
  17. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    backpedalled or clarified?

    If he changed his mind, say like in terms of nation-building, that would be backpedalling

    If he wanted to make sure his views were properly understood, it would be clarifying

    Any proof he turned that bike around, or are you speculating?
  18. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Well, we'd all like to see that. It bothers me that admin. after admin. for decades has had to svck up to these jokers just to keep this economy going. If there had been serious alternative fuel research 30-40 yrs. ago, we would have eventually broken our addiction to Saudi oil. Opportunity missed, but recent events should spur us in the right direction.

    Which candidate has proposed a comprehensive alternative fuel program? Is it Dean?
  19. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sick of this fantasy that Israel's leadership has always taken the moral high ground and the Palestinian refugees are nothing but terrorist scum who strike for no reason other than bloodlust.

    It's a ridiculous over-simplification, and you will find the majority of Israeli citizens don't buy it.

    It is entirely possible to condemn terrorism, to refuse to bargain with terrorists, and yet to seek a peaceful solution to this problem which benefits both sides. And, as I emphasized on the Lieberman/Dean thread - we should be clear about who the "sides" are. Should the U.S. take sides between Arafat and Sharon? Maybe, although Sharon is scarcely better the Arafat. Should the U.S. take sides between Israel and the Palestinians? Certainly not; both sides have legitimate complaints and needs which must be addressed if peace is to be acheived.

    Obviously this is not a call for the U.S. to support Palestinian (or any other) terrorist organizations. But it is perfectly possible to address the underlying causes of terrorism while still disapproving of terrorism. Anyone who can't reconcile those two agendas is too intellectually stunted to participate in this discussion.
  20. Finnegan

    Finnegan Member

    Sep 5, 2001
    Portland Oregon
    Well said Demosthenes.

    On the Dean front - I am seeing a new attack by the right which are now rightly scared of the man. They are attempting to take a little shine off the man by labeling him "wishy-washy" and "backpedaling". Interesting strategy - I am seriously curious if it will work. From a political strategy perspective now is the perfect time to do it because Dean can't hit back with the hundred of examples that Bush flip-flopped because he is not yet running against Bush.

    If he smacks his own D opponents then he risks internecine warfare!
  21. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    For one thing, Israel would be roughly four times bigger than it is today.
  22. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Simple question for you. How can the US support the Palestinian's de-facto boss, Arafat, when he started this current intifada and even you admit he's basically a terrorist leader? States have to have leaders to do their bargaining - can we agree upon that? Can this be done with Arafat? Israel has already said "no way." Is it too much to ask for the Palestinian leadership to get their sh!t together for once before they sit down to bargain? We're talking about the intelligentsia here, not psycho suicide bombers. Arafat missed his chance during the 90s to accept a fair deal. He'll never see one like it again.
  23. needs

    needs Member

    Jan 16, 2003
    The way out is to question the press. Say, "I'm clarifying my stance on this issue, why haven't you questioned the President on his flip-flops/lies on point 1, 2, and 3."

    He changes the subject without attacking fellow Democrats, puts the press on the defensive that they won't be able to lable him like they did Gore, and attacks Bush all at the same time.
  24. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Dean doesn't have to worry about Republicans. Influential people in his own party are ripping him a new one over his Israel comments:
  25. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't been following Dean from the beginning, but it seems like this may be his vulnerability. He's hot-headed and doesn't carefully measure his words. Later, when he goes back to clarify, he leaves himself open to those accusations of backpedaling and wishy-washiness.

    I can understand that people don't want a leader who expresses himself badly. Okay, clearly that doesn't bother them. But they don't want a leader who often says something other than what he means. Personally, though, I think it's a great quality. It's refreshing to see someone who doesn't (appear to) have a team of speechwriters carefully composing every line based on focus groups and poll results.

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