David Odonkor

He's an unconscionable diver. A stiff breeze will knock him over, followed by the requisite writhing on the ground.

I haven't seen him that much, but what I have seen of him suggests that, while fast, he doesn't possess any outstanding skill, quality, or other meaningful trait. Perhaps a useful player, but not much more.

 

You obviously haven't seen him recently. His skill and qualities are coming along. Six months ago, I would have agreed with everything you said besides the "unconscionable diver" part (Look at D'Alessandro's tapes for that! ), but while Odonkor has a LONG WAY to go, he is indeed getting better. Very visably better......

 

Odonkor has shown major improvement in the first half of this season. He's still beating opponents with his pace, but he's learning a bit of trickery. So far, after Weidenfeller, Smolarek and Kehl, I think Odonkor has been Dortmund's most valuable player.

Does he have the potential to be included in the German National Team? Yes.

Will he be included? No.

Not unless there are a rash of injuries at his position. The guys ahead of Odonkor on the German National Team all deserve to be ahead of Odonkor. Odonkor has lots of improving to do before he can truly be considered for the national team, but the good thing for us Dortmund fans is that he's doing that improving right before our eyes this season.

Klinsmann has been giving players on the outside a shot, but Odonkor has really shown his improvement too late to figure in this World Cup. I think Klinsmann already has his "base" of 30-35 guys he's going to build his squad from and Odonkor is on the outside looking in.

However, if he keeps improving, an appearance at Euro 2008 wouldn't be out of the question.........

 

I still have memories of that dive he took against St. Pauli in 2002 which "earned" Dortmund a penalty and an ill-deserved point. He's jumping up and down like he won the freaking lottery, Sammer is giving him big hugs, and the replays clearly showed that he wasn't touched. Cheaters, cheaters, cheaters. From that moment, Odonkor's reputation was cast, in my eyes. More recently, he took two dives the last time Dortmund was on FSC (neither in the box, but in both instances he clearly dove, raising my blood pressure). And last year, in another FSC game, he dove several times. My opinion, which I concede is limited, is that he is a guy who, if he doesn't/can't blow past you, will then make the conscious decision to blow over.

P.S. And as for D'Alessandro, surely you remember the exchange I had on the dear departed Wolfsburg board with an Argentine fan who got all huffy because I had the gumption to remark that Argentine players occasionally were worthy of Olympic diving medals, so I'm not blind to D's penchant for flopping. The one thing that I'll say for D is that he takes a beating and is frequently a cleats-up target when on the ball. Odonkor doesn't get that kind of attention.

 

So, in other words, your opinion is biased and uninformed.

Odonkor has changed his game plenty. He's actually learning the game.

Take a look before spitting a biased and uninformed opinion to someone who is actually trying to learn something about a player. You might be surprised at what you see.

If you want to see it.

Again, I guess you haven't been watching BVB lately. Odonkor is the catalyst of the offense these days and yes, he has been drawing that kind of attention more and more.

Again, look before you spit such an opinion when it's clearly an uninformed one.......

 

1. All opinion is biased, so yes, my opinion is biased. As for uninformed, I admitted that my exposure to Odonkor was limited, but what I saw affirmed my opinion. And what are you complaining about? If it wasn't for biased an ill-formed opinions, there would be no Big Soccer.

2. I haven't been watching Dortmund regularly. My viewing is limited to what FSC gives me, which means I've seen them 2, maybe 3 times this season. But I have seen them, and Odonkor has found it difficult to stay on his feet in those games.

3. Odonkor is the "catalyst" for the offense? Well, that might explain why Dortmund is mid-table and behind a team like Gladbach, which lacks entirely anything resembling a catalyst for its offense. But that's really not my point. Odonkor is, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, a wing-type player. Dortmund distributes the ball wide to him, and he goes at a defender. In so doing, he may, indeed, be a "catalyst" for the offense (although, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, I have been more impressed with Smolarek). But he is not, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, the focal point of the team's attack, he is not the team's playmaker, he is not a guy who is on the ball a lot (that would be, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, Rosicky when healthy); contrast that to D'Alessandro, who is the focal point of the attack, he is the team's playmaker, he is on the ball a lot.

4. As for Odonkor learning the game, good for him. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on him. It could not have been easy "coming of age" with Sammer and crew, a group that I thought then were some of the biggest cheaters I had ever seen. I still chuckle (if that's the right word) at the sight of 6 foot, 3 zillion inch Jan Koller crumpling (in slow motion, it seemed) at the slightest provocation from the slightest of players. Ewerthon (sp?); Amoroso. That was the environment this guy was brought up in. But I still can't get the St. Pauli thing out of my head, as Odonkor is celebrating, with unmitigated glee, a PK he cheated to get.

 

Responses as numbered above.....

1. I only have a problem with "ill-formed" opinions when they are put to someone asking a question who might take your "ill-formed"/uninformed opinion as fact when it's pretty far from the truth. I know America has gotten used to misinformation in the recent past, but when someone is putting out BS about one of the players at my favorite club, I'll call you on it.


2. You sure Odonkor had trouble staying on his feet for the reasons you are projecting or because that's just how you want to see it? From what I've seen of the kid, he's not doing nearly as much of that bulls#it as he did in the past.

As you can see, I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you it didn't happen. It did. I suspect Odonkor was emulating Ewerthon, who was the "divingest son-of-a-bi#ch" we ever had in Dortmund.


3. You talk about a team like Dortmund being mid-table like it's some kind of bad thing. And excuse me, isn't your team currently four places behind us despite the fact we've lost three straight and had most of our lineup out for most of the past six weeks??

If you take a look at the injury problems Dortmund have faced this half of the season (No BL team has missed more starters for more of the season than BVB), it's a f#cking miracle we are as high as we are. We've broken the record for youngest BL team of all-time TWICE this season thanks to freakin' injuries, so I'll f#cking gladly take mid-table. For the most part, this team has overachieved, not underachieved. Not like some teams I know.

But why don't we see where they are at the end??

Speaking of catalysts and playmakers, there's not just one way to play a game and no law that says everything has to go through the #10. None that I'm aware of anyhow.

Odonkor has been sparking the BVB attack from the wing. More so than Rosicky in the middle, but both have five assists this season. Rosicky has two or three from corners and all of Odonkor's have come from the field of play.

BTW, that's one more than your "playmaker", so I don't think either one of them are doing too badly.


4. You are being pretty f#cking harsh on Odonkor. And I don't defend any of the others you named. They are guilty as charged. But during that time, Odonkor was fighting for his young career. You have no idea how much good, young talent Sammer ruined and shoved out the door at BVB. Before Sammer was fired, it was known that he was trying to get rid of Odonkor. Bert van Marwijk has given Odonkor a new lease on life and is actually teaching Odonkor how to play the game.

Bottom line? If you've got personal issues with the player, that's fine. However, you also need to remember if you have the right to spew an "ill-informed" or "uninformed" opinion, others also have the right to call you on it.

 

1. As you should.

2. We're pretty much saying the same thing. The only difference of opinion is that I think he still goes down too easily.

3. A lot of people in a lot of different positions can be catalysts. My half-hearted defense of D'Alessandro centered solely on the fact that, because of his role, he has a lot more touches and is more frequently a target of defenders out to make a point. I'm sure someone can point us to statistics regarding number of touches, etc. As for Wolfsburg versus Dortmund, please review my posts. At no point did I attempt to engage in a comparison of the relative merits of the team, and I'm not sure why you felt the need to do so. FWIW, I'm a firm believe that the proof is in the pudding. One look at the winter break tables will tell you which has been the better team. But then again, Dortmund had a legitimate, qualified, talented coach for those 17 games, while Wolfsburg had, well, . . .

4. I don't spew, but in any event, thanks for your views (which, notwithstanding our disagreement, I value highly). I'll watch his play closer next time (and perhaps with a more open mind--no promises, though ) to see if he's playing the game instead of conning the refs.

 

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285526

Another Odonkor thread.

 

I thought we'd agree there.

And I think that's a wholly incorrect opinion. Not just because I'm a Dortmund fan, but because I've seen most of their matches this season and I know your opinion of him is factually incorrect based on his performances this season.. You admitted your opinion is largely uninformed, but then tried to tell me that without uninformed (Read: Wrong) opinions, there would be no BigSoccer.

I thought that one was pretty funny myself.

And Dortmund missed at least two key players per match for the last eight matches of this half of the season. With the talent you guys had, Fach wasn't the only excuse.

I do believe Augenthaler will get you guys back on the right track. We may eventually wind up behind you because Strunz did bring in some good talent for you guys.

But you guys will see that Augenthaler isn't a "long-term" solution. Just as he did in Nuernberg and Leverkusen, he will eventually alienate his team with his arrogance and just his straight a$$hole demeanor.

Kicker rated Odonkor the fourth best winger in the BL in the first half of the season behind Ze Roberto, Sebastian Schweinsteiger and Tranquilla Barnetta of Leverkusen. Odonkor was rated ahead of such players as Deisler, Kobiaschvili and Tiffert.

You don't get that kind of ranking by diving and trying to "con the refs".......

 

Fine, I'll only post on that which I am an expert (which means that unless BS opens up a labor and employment law forum, I'll have to go elsewhere).

As for injuries, boo hoo. Please note that Wolfsburg's freefall coincided with D'Alessandro's injury and Hofland's lengthy suspension (and don't forget that Wolfsburg transferred its best player shortly before the season began, which is an injury, self-inflicted, of sorts). Bottom line: injuries and suspensions are part of the game. What matters is that Dortmund managed a stunning total of 21 points in 17 games, three points better than Wolfsburg.

 

This thread has become quite comical...

Odonkor is the type of guy that will get the good ball into the box. He can beat his man by skill or by sheer speed. His shot is above average and he's still quite young. Get his defensive abilities up a bit and you have quite an efficient winger. And really with a winger, what else do you need? Is he a player to build a club around? Not at this point, but he is one to hang onto for the foreseeable future.

Wolfsburgh's point of contention with Odonkor's diving is nullified by his admittance that D'allessandro takes the dive as well. Wolfsburgh's the Pot and BVB, in his eyes, are the Kettle. Diving is unfortunately inherent in the game. It has been looked over by the FA as a problem bigger than them so it flourishes not only in Germany but in every league on the planet. So if you have a problem with a player's diving then you have a problem with the whole game of football. Categorically you cannot single out a player's sole fault as being a diver because odds are your team/s have their fair share as well. You can disagree with diving in general, as I do, but there is no way you can damn a club or player because of it.

 

Exactly. That's why I just left it alone.

You said that better than I ever did. That's pretty much what I was getting at.

Not realistically anyhow.......

Thanks for your posting. I think you nailed everything I didn't say though my incredulity and rage at the original biased and uninformed opinion........

But the thing I didn't respect enough here is that we are all entitled to our opinions, no matter how biased and uninformed. I just didn't like that someone was actually asking a question about the player trying to gather information and was fed with misinformation.

Looking back, I think that wasn't Wolfsburgh's intention, but that's how I took it.

Wolfsburgh said he'd take another look at Odonkor when he can and I believe he will do that. Don't let this one opinion put Wolfsburgh in any "bad light" with you. He's a good fan and truly cares about the game, not just his favorites.

I believe he just doesn't like David Odonkor because of one bad incident. Unfair? Yes. But also his perogative.

Great posting you put there though. I really liked it. Rep coming!

 

And I did watch Odonkor on Saturday. I didn't see Odonkor take a dive the whole game. Good for him. But I also saw a guy who played wide exclusively, chased down long balls, and occasionally (certainly not always) hit a good cross. He added little else to the game. My favorite is when he dribbled out of bounds. A very limited repertoire in my book. You may call him a "catalyst," and you may be right. But I did not see a complete player, nor did I see a player verging on something special. I saw a fast role player who occasionally filled his role effectively. Is that his fault? Or is that what role he was asked to play? I don't know, nor do I wish to speculate. All I want to say is that I didn't see anything special.

As for Hypo-Luxa, I'm glad I could entertain you. You missed my point about D'Alessandro. My defense of D was, as I described, "half-hearted." I deplore diving, and I've called D to task for it on these boards, to which Footy can attest. My only point was, in my view, D's diving was more defensible (not defensible in the end, just more defensible) because he was on the ball so much. And by the way, I stick to that; after watching the game on Saturday, Odonkor was not on the ball very much; the "engine" of that team (to move away from the term, "catalyst") was Rosicky, so if Odonkor dives twice in game and D (or Rosicky, to carry through the analogy) dives twice in a game, I think Odonkor is the worst of the two.

As for your argument about damning a player or club because of diving because everybody does it, I sure as hell can. First of, I can. I can do what I want, within certain bounds, and expressing opinion, at least here, is permitted. Second, and more relevant, there are degrees of culpability. Some players, some teams, are worse than others. So I don't think it is hypocritical, wrongheaded, or intellectually inconsistent to take a person or team to task for diving, even if there are others out there who, in my estimation, are not as culpable. Pot, kettle, whatever. But let's use this little exercise. A murders X after X rapes his wife. B murders Y in coldblood because Y is black. I think I can "categorically" state that, while both are murderers, A is "better" than B. Similarly, C euthanizes Z upon Z's request; D euthanizes multiple patients in a hospital because he gets a kick out seeing people die. Again, I can "categorically" state that C is better than D. Oh, and I do have a problem with soccer because of the diving. I think it is the biggest blight upon the game, and until FIFA gets serious about rectifying the problem, the game will be the worse off for it. If a little bit of shaming on Big Soccer moves the ball, well, I'm all for it.

 

It also wasn't one of his better games. I hope you aren't in the habit of completely judging players based on one game.

No defense for him on that one. I actually laughed my ass off.

I said he got better, I didn't say he was a star yet. What's funny is that other BVB fans are making "slippery pitch" excuses for him. I don't buy it. I think he still has a lot of work to do on ball control and knowing when to "downshift". Everytime you see him, it's "full speed ahead".

When did I ever say he was anything special? I said he was much better than he was before and he is. He also should have had two assists, but Smolarek couldn't get on the end of his crosses. When you saw him the last time, he wasn't capable of doing that. He still has work to do. I never said he was a star already.

Yes, he is a role player, but an important one. In the first half of the season, most of our attacks originated from his wing. Yesterday, you got a healthy dose of Rosicky. No big deal.

Again, Saturday wasn't one of Odonkor's better games this season and I ask you not to judge players on single performances.

I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing BVB on FSC again this season. Or, if you have PPLIVE on your computer, I'm pretty sure the Scheisse-BVB match will be on streaming video this coming weekend.

 

Hey, I've already judged him on one game 4 years ago; why stop now I can only judge him on what I saw. Do not misinterpret my review as an attempt to be the definitive analysis; it is not, nor was it intended as such. However, I will say that what I saw from him on Saturday generally comports with what I remember from him earlier this season.

Congrats on the win on Saturday. Christ, though, it's tough to beat a team when they are playing 12 men to 10 (I know Schnoor's jersey looked green, but it must have been a problem with my TV, because he certainly played like he had a yellow jersey on).

 

I never saw Odonkor as a catalyst nor anything close to becoming Rosicky's replacement as the man pulling all the strings. End of story. If that didn't come across too clearly in my previous post, I apologize. But Rosicky leaving fills me with all types of dread. There's just no way you can replace that type of player. But anyway, back on topic...

yes, yes of course you can say whatever you like. Don't get ultra-defensive on me. I'm not attacking you at all, just debating your position. That's it. Now maybe your version of "damning" is different than mine but when I say damning a club or player I mean swearing them off as cheats and trash (ie. Man Utd, Arsenal, etc). All I was trying to get across is whether you agree or disagree with the practice of diving it is EVERYWHERE. I never meant to say "accept it because everyone is doing it". My point was that while the practice is irreprehensible, it HAS to be overlooked to a degree because every team has at least one diver. Call the player/s to task, sure, but if your sole judgement on a player is that he's a dirty cheating diver (which i know is not your sole criticism of him) then you've just criticised by association your team for employing the said diving player. It's like the old adage. Would you have yelled and complained as loud if the penalty that was given to you for one of your player's diving were the opposition?
As for your homicide analogies, I won't even bother with them. It's a game of football, not an episode of CSI. And that "it's the same principle" is just bollocks because it's not. That's like your mom asking you if your friend jumped off a cliff would you? Never made sense before and it still doesn't.

And yes before you get defensive again, I enjoyed the debate. What do you think of D'Alessandro heading to England? He's on a sinking ship now, so will his work-rate get any better or will he sulk for the rest of the year?

 

I'm back! Seriously, guys, thanks for tolerating me here. I saw the Dortmund game this weekend. I watched the first 60 minutes fairly closely; I concede that I was sometimes distracted in the last 30 minutes, and may have missed something.

Odonkor as a diver: he fell and someone got a yellow card (I forget who; Schulz?). The replay was inconclusive. One could make the argument that the Bremen player's feet got tangled up with Odonkor's legs (although that was not clear), and one could also make the argument that if that was the case, it was nowhere near enough to cause Odonkor to fall rather spectacularly (although that was not clear). On balance, I don't think the incident reasonably supports my position, in large part because I thought he played fairly at other times in the game.

Odonkor as a player: again, I saw a very limited player. His sole repertoire consists of running quickly after balls kicked down the wing, and then attempting to get in a cross. I did not see him add anything else to the Dortmund game plan. What makes him a useful player is that he does do the kick and run stuff effectively. One thing I noticed (and I can't believe I didn't pick up on this before, because the evidence is stark) is that he falls down on every single cross. He never stays on his feet. What kind of technique is that? Whatever it is, I consider it a total breakdown. His crossing is acceptable now; imagine if he'd ever learn to cross without sliding/lunging/tripping at the ball. I can't imagine that he can be as accurate as he wants to be with this technique.

A few comments on some actual plays that I saw. He had a gift wrapped opportunity in the first half where he went alone on the GK with Smolarek as an option on a square pass, and his skills totally betrayed him and he essentially toe-poked a cross right to the keeper. On one play, he put in a cross and went sliding out of the play; the ball was cleared right to him, but because he was on the ground, the defender was able to easily gather and clear. And this might seem small, but on a throw, the Dortmund player clearly wanted to throw the ball to Odonkor's feet, and Odonkor did not want the ball at his feet; he just kept on pointing, presumably to say, "Throw it down the field and I'll chase it down." It's like he doesn't trust his ability to trap and hold a ball.

 

100% correct. Again, I never said he was star, I said he was a hell of a lot better than he was when you labeled him.

 

What I've seen of Odonkor (3 or 4 games), I've been extremely impressed.

At this point he is very very raw, and needs a lot of refinement. But he can gain skills and refinement with time and good coaching.

The thing is, the extreme speed he has is something you can't teach. Also, he seems to have incredible indurance. At the 89th minute he is still running his SS off, full speed, still looking like he's been through a stroll through the park, not a full intensity soccer game. Those are attributes that the vast majority of not only BVB players, but most German players lack.

So at this point, it is a big "wait and see" on the development of David Odonkor. And let's hope he continues to improve. In the meantime, it's damn exciting watching him play, if at times comical (dribbling out of bounds).

I do believe that since he has the raw physical ability, that Odonkor will eventually be given a look on the German nats, if for nothing else as a late game sub to add energy and pace.

 

Like I said on the other board, there's no guarantee he's going to get better. I'm impressed with the progress he's made from last season to this one, but he also seems to have hit a wall in his development. At least I think he has.

I haven't seen any improvement in his first touches and ball-handling other than straight ahead recently and I think he's horrible in those aspects. I believe he also needs to learn to "downshift". There have been many times he cost himself and the team chances because he's out there overrunning the ball......

However, what he does well, running, dribbling straight ahead and crossing, he does very well.

I think the jury is still out on him, but I understand why you can see him in the Germany shirt in the near future.