I agree, but pulling our best players out of public view during their formative years, is never going to truly excite or interest the America public in this sport, the way it does for other sports… Suiting up to go against Crosstown Tech in front of 200 parents and girlfriends, may be bad soccer right now…but you have to crawl before you can walk…yet many demand we sprint… I agree, in practical terms, things need to change…but to better to modify our existing HS/college structure then to ignore/go around it altogether….I know we tend to think of school sports in terms of Spring, Winter or Fall….but if soccer would be better served as a longer or (school) year-round sport, maybe that’s a small tweak, within our HS/College model that could be made… At some point, I hope we get tired of trying to pound a square peg in a round hole, and starting doing things within our existing sports culture, instead of trying mimic ones we have little connection with….
Not what I said (or at least not what I meant). In basketball, a stud player can show off his skills regardless of the team he's on and the strength of the other team. In soccer, even a Pulisic, unless supported by teammates, can't (or rarely can) show off his skills, especially if faced with a quality opponent.
I think this last point is interesting. Sometimes I feel the approach is: Here is "Das Reboot," this is what we should copy...go implement it. So then your best young talent says come to Europe if you can (where more or less that is more implemented). Neither reflect what we can (or should?) do here.
Sorry, I am dealing with two opposite storylines….Terrier’66. was saying that “stud” would run around destroying everyone, and your saying that same “stud” would look like shit because his teammates would suck and his opposition quality….both are possible, but I think there is lot of ground between those two points that would make spotting talent far from impossible…
But it does come back to the bar you're trying to reach -- it's been set and continues to be raised in countries (most of the rest of the world) where soccer is played year-round and is the primary sport. And part of that is that measuring stick of "how'd we do at the World Cup?" that mwulf complains about. Now, if HS and college soccer were played year round or at least closer to it (which I find really hard to imagine happening, particularly in HS), maybe you could work within that "more-American" system. But short of that, concentrating on HS and college soccer will mean we'll always be running behind the rest of the world. Now, if we're content for that to be the case, then we can do whatever we like. But I think most(?) of the soccer community feels like it's important to compete on that global stage. And competing on that stage is part of the process of building soccer's appeal -- at least based on the growth of the game since 1994.
Yes and no…if the World Cup disappeared tomorrow, those other countries would carry on with their domestic leagues and whatnot, and the popularly and passion for the sport would not diminish in the least… In this country, and without the WC to chase, I am not sure soccer even has a reason to exist at this point…we are so focused on the goal, we have completely forgotten the infrastructure….we have forgotten (or never learned) why those other counties care so much about the WC…we haven’t just put the cart before the horse, we don’t even have a horse yet… I think year round or longer seasoned academic soccer is possible…I believe some college coaches are pushing/lobbying for that…and if the college system changes, it could easily trickle down to HS… If we were truly passionate about soccer and ran it “our way,” I don’t believe we would be doomed to be 2nd best….we have population and resources to do just about anything, IF we put our collective minds and heart into it…and we wouldn’t need a national organization telling how to do it or a 17-point plan on how to get there…we would just go out and do it…sorry, a little Kumbaya…. But trust me, for the most part, I relies I am barking at the wind….
No, I did not say the soccer stud would look like shit. I said I think a basketball player can standout more despite the quality of his teammates and the opponent (whether good or bad) vs a soccer player.
What does it matter who stands out more between different sports (apples and oranges)? It only matters that talented soccer player are identifiable between lesser talented soccer players (apples to apples)… If a soccer scout can separate wheat from chaff, then maybe he shouldn’t be a soccer scout…
My intention was to say that a college coach would get very little benefit watching a kid run around inferior talent. I've not encountered a college that had scouts, they are the assistant coaches and they have a college team to work with and other things to do like their family etc. So, sure, if a college coach took the time to go to a HS game he could find the superior player...but he'd be hard pressed to rank that player accurately. Instead, they would come right out and tell the player that the precious time they might have during the college season, which in most states is simultaneous to HS, will not be spent watching you play with and against lesser players who play at a slower speed. So, let's not try to create a straw man, I never said they wouldn't be able to find Giovinco on the field, I said they wouldn't even come to the game...because they would ask the player what showcase they were attending and wait to see them play a club game against better players, playing at a much faster speed. To the point already made, they also could see 10 players at a showcase. I know more than one club CB that played striker for their HS team or MF was told they could do whatever they want so to speak...watching that isn't helping the college coach. If a school has a D 1 prospect, they are likely the only one on the field. You can find them, but you have little idea how they’d fare against bigger, faster, better players. I'm not offering an opinion, I'm stating what has been experienced by me and at least 20 other families I know and club personnel that have put dozens of boys and girls into D1 programs. But it isn’t just me or my circle... If you go to an id camp, showcase etc. you can walk up to parents you've never met and their experience is startling similar to your own...you hear the same stories and experiences.
Yes, I understand how things are currently in soccer vis-à-vis college scouting and recruitment…DA and/or showcases are the name of the game… I am merely suggesting it doesn’t have to work that way; that other sports may have to work harder to find their talent, but they still find it….it could be done; that’s all I am saying… Coaches and scouts in other more popular sports don’t sit around waiting for the “talent” to be laid before them in at some showcase smorgasbord… DI prospects from other sports come out of small High Schools, where they are likely head shoulders bigger/faster/better then everyone one else, all the time…somehow those coaches and scouts are able to extrapolate how they might fare against equally bigger/faster/better players… Unfortunately, Soccer just isn’t popular enough to demand such hard work…the supply far exceeds demand and the (overall) drive/passion to be viewed as one of the best soccer programs in the country doesn’t exist to quite the same level it does in other sports…even the most non-sports fan can probably name a few bigtime football and basketball programs…yet, even the most avid sport fan might not even know if their local college even has a soccer program…
How good did Pulisic look in the US game against T&T? Did he look like the best player in the country? My point is the teammates and opponents have more of an influence on how a soccer star looks than that of a basketball star. You can have the best striker in the country on a HS team. However, if the opponents are good and the team's defense isn't, that striker isn't getting the ball to show off his skill. I saw it in DS's middle school championship game. DS was one of the two, if not the best, best players in the district. The other top player was on the opposing team. The other coach took his #2 player and had him cover DS. DS touched the ball maybe 5 times. He had been the team's leading scorer. We lost 0-2. If a scout (yes, I know it's MS) had been watching, DS wouldn't have made a good impression, because his team couldn't support him and the opponents specifically game planned for him. I don't think opponents and teammates are as big a factor in other sports.
Wouldn’t a scout who knows what he’s doing understand the situation, and make a judgement or non-judgment accordingly? Kids have bad games or non-factor games at showcases as well… Kids get “game planned” against all the time in other sports as well…you can lock down a WR, spy a RB, double team a Center, pitch around a hot hitter, etc…or just have a bad game for whatever reason… However, I find it hard to believe a single scout or a single game is going to decide anyone’s future….
“Who is left? I am at bottom of barrel.” “Then you find another barrel.” -- The Cutting Edge Though my experiences are far more limited, I do tend to see things closer to this. I’m sure it’s easier said than done and scholarship opportunities and monetary restrictions probably play a big role considering how much money goes through the football and basketball programs. Though, I wonder how college soccer coaches and other personnel go about finding talent. While there are AAU showcases that may put players on the map, I don’t know that it exists the same in football. There are certainly off-season camps, but I think that is closer to the NFL combine than a true representation of what a player can do on field. The games are usually in HS and those that aren’t are post-season all-star showcases, where the talented players are already known and recruited thoroughly – in many, players are making their collegiate decision made (rather than getting approached by a coach then). It’s a bit of a disservice I’m sure to compare it to football, but it does seem like they go the extra mile. Many collegiate teams have international players, but I’m guessing those players weren’t actively involved with stateside clubs or HS teams. How are they discovered? Something outside of showcases? It does seem that there are other opportunities to finding talent than saying show up at this showcase so I can actively compete for your services with 50 other coaches. Are there diamond’s in the rough? It sometimes doesn’t feel like there are as if you aren’t known by 16 or 17 years of age, you might not be known at all. Where football has countless walk-on success stories and even basketball has some stories like that (Scottie Pippen was a 6’1” walkon that grew like 7 inches…unusual, sure, but players can peak at different times).
I get the same impression. I haven't read "Das Reboot" yet but I have read several other books recommended by posters on this board and it seems like we focus too much on what works overseas without examining why it works. There really isn't a "European" model, per se. There's an Italian one, a Dutch one, an English one, etc. and (if the authors are to be believed) they're all very different because of unique cultural reasons. Sometimes, they take completely different approaches but ultimately produce world class players. We can't plug and play any of these systems in the U.S. on a large scale for a host of reasons so we're left with 2 paths. In one, we separate a select number of players and try to replicate it on a small scale. That seems to be pretty close to the current system, where soccer is run so different than other high participation sports. The other would be to integrate it more into the mainstream and devise a system that works based on our cultural and geographic realities. I'm not sure there's really an appetite for that, regardless of what people say. I sense there's a large segment of people that genuinely like that soccer is "different" than the other sports and doesn't really want it to be the same as football, basketball and baseball.
The football comparison is difficult to make, I think. A DI football staff will have nine or 10 coaches plus another 10-15 (give or take) "staff" members (grad assistants, "analysts," strength coaches, ...) who are all involved in varying degrees in scouting and recruiting. And most of them travel like crazy to scout and recruit kids -- it's expensive, far, far beyond what a soccer program could spend.They also rely to some degree on private scouting services for advance information, camps the schools put on themselves, and camps run by those services, ... It is truly an industry, for better or worse. Basketball is similar, on a slightly smaller scale -- big staff (maybe four coaches plus another two or three staff members), traveling constantly when they aren't at games or practices to fill out a roster of about 15. And those rare kids who are coming from smaller schools to play DI are playing AAU, going to camps, ..., to get on coaches' radars and face better competition ( Meyers Leonard, who now plays in the NBA, is an example, and his story is unusual in that he became such an athletic anomaly that he really stood out wherever he went: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyers_Leonard ). DI coaches aren't going to small schools out in the boondocks looking for kids; they go there only after they've IDed them elsewhere, and to an extent just to impress the player and show they care enough to go watch them play HS games. I'd guess high school basketball tournaments, a lot like soccer showcase tournaments, do draw a lot of college coaches since there's the chance to catch more than one or two talented kids. On the other hand, looking at Indiana's men's soccer team's website, it appears to have a staff of four recruiting for a roster of, what, 25-30? And that's one of the top programs in the country.
By the way, this has been a great thread leading in lots of interesting directions. Thanks to the original poster.
You're missing my point. Yes, everyone can have a bad game. I just think a soccer player needs his teammates to look good more than athletes in other sports. You can say a RB (or QB) needs a line to block for him, and a WR needs a QB to throw the ball well. But there are objective benchmarks (speed, weight lifting, vertical jump, etc) that can also be used. Just because an athlete can do a fast 40 yard sprint doesn't mean they're fast with a ball. And yes, I absolutely believe a bad game at the wrong time can change someone's future. Again, how good did Pulisic look during WC qualifying?
I don't disagree with a lot of your points. I would say that D1 (FBS) programs have 85 players in scholarship, can have a roster of something like 105 during the off-season and essentially unlimited during the season itself. That accounts for some of the staff and I am thinking the player to staff ratio isn't too far off what some soccer programs have. That doesn't mean it is near equal. The soccer coaches get paid significantly less and I am sure the recruiting budget is fairly sparse in comparison. The largest University in my state doesn't even have a D1 men's soccer program. The two we have that do, don't have a football team. There does seem to be more youth /hs recruiting coverage now for soccer than I am guessing there was in the past. Topdrawersoccer and even Hudl if not sites like maxsports have coverage, so maybe there is potential for more of that. The dad of one of my daughter's teammates played college soccer in the 90s at a lower level college. I asked how was discovered and I think it was having coaches watching his HS game. Then he said, but it's different now. Is the difference a good thing? It seems to be a necessary thing, but is it better?
It has been fun and interesting. I don't mind the tangents...and enjoying the passion a lot have on here
The point is, that it is a waste of the college scout's time to watch a kid play without a proper baseline to actually put the players skill in context. Also in play with HS is the much wider age variance of the players to account for. Is the kid not having a good game because they are a sophomore going up against a team primarily composed of Juniors and Seniors? There are just to many moving parts with school soccer and to wide a range of quality for a college coach to take looking at a kid in that environment seriously.
You have to think downstream on this. Using High Schools to develop players in the manner that clubs can can do catastrophic damage downstream. Kids being locked into a system because of geography versus finding a program that makes sense for them. Also, a HS can only field a single Varsity and JV team. There are far more kids interested in playing than there are roster spots.
It's a business, just like anything else. http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/34097904 My dream is that someday, the top players in MLS will be players that washed out of professional US academies
If what I have read and surmised is accurate, the majority of HS varsity and JV teams are going to be made up of players on clubs. Presumably these are some of the better club players as well (I may do some quick research and revisit this). I am guessing the very best club players may not compete at the HS or collegiate level; the next group down play HS and then college; then you have a group that played HAS and stopped. Is there a large collection of club players that can't make their HS team, but keep in playing anyway? Is there a group under that which is even larger featuring those that play at a rec level (does one exist for 15 to 22 year olds)? I just feel like so many wash out fairly early for cost or playing time opportunities and we miss out on that grassroots passion we need. It is one thing for this 40 something who never played,but will my paying daughters keep up with it or become coaches or something some day? One thing I haven't seen yet, and it could be generational, is club pride. There is some, but not like school pride. I am not hearing from those the played for Club X 03 Green...but you will here they played for Hometown HS.
We shouldn’t forget that sometimes numbers really help. Knowing a linebacker is 6’3” and runs a 4.5 forty gets a coach’s attention. A kid with a 90mph fastball will get a scout out to Nowhereville. A 6’6” guard that scores 30 a game will get somebody’s attention. How do you rate an outside back off of numbers? Is the right height for a CB 6’3 or 5’11? We know a 5’9” keeper won’t get much love but Soccer isn’t a great sport for metrics. There are tons of kids who score 20 goals in HS but don’t even start for club. In some states there are 3-4 levels of competition in HS so winning the class 4 state championship or being all-district is not descriptive enough.