Cristiano Ronaldo ~ Your Favorite Player Is So Much Better!! Thread

I am not talking about inconsistency within the last few posts. It is inconsistency across the board.

I have many questions regarding your point of view on many topics because I dont even know what you are trying to say so can we make a deal?

I will ask you some questions and you geniuenly respond to them and if you have, Ill answer any question you might have for me.

Deal?

 

I'm hoping for a yes or no answer to the question. I formulated the question in a concise and direct manner.

 

I would much rather than. The issue is you inserted yourself in a conversation which turned into a 2v1, while not doing the legwork of reading a volume of posts that have already taken place.

But if your questions are concise and clear, I can answer directly and clearly.

 

As I’ve explained, I don’t have conclusive data on which to provide a definite yes or no answer. So I explained what I can say with the information I do have. If you have further information that might allow for a more conclusive answer, then please provide it and stop discussing like an adolescent (demands of “yes” or “no” answers to complicated questions for which there is not conclusive info is just immature).

 

I dont have to read every post to have an issue with a specific argument or a sentence or make a comment.

Okay. I will do so shortly after I filter out minor issues so to not overwhelm you and sidetrack comversation again but focus conversation to the essence.

 

Why are you making whole assertions and arguments undermining points I have made instead of saying "I don't know"?
You propped up a fallacious association (the argument being % of team's passes is a reflection of Messi's "field depth") and directly argued against me. As well as assertions that he became deeper over time.
So your position should be I don't know. Not essays propped up on something you admitted you didn't have data on.

 

You can tone down the condescension and aggression. It is none of my business if points I made have been developed and thoroughly argued and that you passed by that conversation.
Keep it moving, and ask your questions.

 

My argument is I do know Messi played deeper than Ronaldo because I have eyes, and the data you try to provide to the contrary doesn’t suggest otherwise when put in context with other data/information. Meanwhile, your argument relies entirely on certain specific information that you refuse to contextualize at all because acknowledging the materially different context would render your argument worthless.

 

Your eyes aren't any worth more than mine, so your argument is moot.

 

I’m not the only one who has said you’re clearly wrong about this. You’re basically just fashioning an entire argument around gaslighting people using specific information that you absolutely refuse to acknowledge materially important context about (despite it being pointed out by multiple people).

 

Multiple people is 2-3 Messiphiles on a nearly defunct platform?

 

If you define away everyone that disagrees with you as a “Messiphile” then perhaps you might be able to live in a cocoon of comfort in which no one challenges your clearly false and inconsistent assertions.

 

The sample is 2 to 3 posters at the most. Your argument is entirely fallacious.

 

I don’t think you know what “fallacious” means. But if you did, you’d know that it applies to your arguments—which rely entirely on ignoring any and all material context. It’s just gaslighting.

Worth also noting that the gaslighting is, at various times, directly contradicted by other statements. For instance, in the prior page, you stated that Messi “occup[ies] deeper positions relative to the defensive line.” Which, of course, you had to admit because you’d also argued that Ronaldo provides more value by staying on the defensive line and making runs and pushing back the defensive line than Messi does providing midfield overloads. So somehow the argument is that Ronaldo simultaneously played deeper than Messi but also Messi played “deeper positions relative to the defensive line.” It makes zero sense whatsoever, which is why you’re being called out by posters for making completely inconsistent points.

 

Messi occupies a central position. Ronaldo stretched the field and played along the width. With respect, deepen your knowledge of football tactics. And provide full quotes. You are derailing the conversation and I am tired of reframing you.

 

So is your argument not that Ronaldo played deeper, but rather than he played in further forward but wider positions? That’s a very different argument, and we can’t have a meaningful discussion unless you clarify which assertion you’re making.

 

Take a step back ask yourself how we got here.

You were presented with definitive facts that Ronaldo was more decisive and productive in the Champions League, over the whole span, over elimination rounds, and in away matches - and did so in multiple ways of reframing the data.

Your reply to that was:
1) Barcelona was selectively worse in matches that Messi did not perform well.
2) Messi played deeper in a systematic fashion in games against tougher opponents (and in a manner where he providing equal or superior value to what Ronaldo provides in G+A)
3) Messi progressively played deeper as Barcelona's (elite midfield) got weaker. (a strange argument because Barca's midfield is as good as pretty much any on the planet in most of those years) and that he provided more value in those zones to make up for the lost production and either match Ronaldo or surpass in performance.

Within the scope of that discussion, you intimated that
Ronaldo was more present in the box than Messi and that Messi effectively had less goal opportunity.
Within that discussion, I said that in addition to this statement being factually false - Ronaldo over the span of a career on average took up deeper and farther positions from the net as Messi.
And that Ronaldo played as a wide forward for the years most of the years Messi was a false 9 - such that the offensive shape of the team was conserved, while Messi's limitations prevent him from playing as a traditional center forward and maintaining the offensive shape - this was less of an issue when the volume of his runs was acceptable - because he could roam and test the defensive line and therefore had a certain effect. But he got less athletic, and that capacity effectively disappeared from his game.

A lot of what you said about Messi's positional evolution is somewhat true, but lacks nuance. The reality is Messi in later years was deployed both as a right forward or false 9 depending on the match, and that he enjoyed tremendous positional freedom such that he had a tendency to play a hybrid role.
Positional data, touch data, heat maps all confirm this.

 

You didn’t answer the question I asked. And it’s an extremely important question to answer if there’s to be any meaningful discussion here, because it is not at all clear what you’re actually claiming.

 

The answer is both for the years he played as a wide forward (and before that).

 

Just saw your edit. Don't even try. My dialogue has been abundantly clear. You have yet to answer my question, so don't abuse my good will.

 

Okay, so how is it both when you are simultaneously also saying that Messi ”occup[ies] deeper positions relative to the defensive line” and that instead of providing midfield overloads Ronaldo was testing the defensive line? This is obviously mutually exclusive with claiming that Ronaldo played deeper.

And what years do you assert he played as a wide forward? Do you admit that Ronaldo didn’t play as deep as Messi in the years he wasn’t a wide forward, and what years are those?

 

If you played football, you would understand that a winger has more space to run into than a player centrally. A team in an offensive posture, won't have defenders stacked in a straight line. The threat level of a rapid player on the wing is far greater than a player that is central. These are evident concepts, and I have already explained this.
There is also the question of volume of action. A younger Messi could roam more effectively on the field, because he had the stamina to try incisive runs in certain positions at a high rate. As he got older, that aspect melted away.

 

Lol, for all you talk of Schrödinger’s cat arguments, this has to take the cake. You’re making mutually exclusive claims and refuse to acknowledge it or back down from either of them.

 

A speedy wing player that can be a receiving outlet obviously provides more threat to the defensive line than a central player in more congested zones. This is incredibly boring to me.

 

Okay, this is a non-sequitur that doesn’t really address the contradiction. But I’m going to take a step back for a moment and let @Sexy Beast ask you questions to clarify your arguments. Maybe he’ll have better luck at getting somewhere productive with you.