Cristiano Ronaldo ~ Your Favorite Player Is So Much Better!! Thread

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by EdgarAllanPoet, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Yes, and you belittle Ronaldo's assist vs Croatia when he actually played 4 vital roles on that goal
     
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  2. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    No, I am not. My commentary about Messi is obviously more critical than not - but that's because we are dealing with fanboys running rampant with false narratives. If discussions were more productive and realistic and genuinely open to discussing players on merit, you will see a different side of my perspectives.
    Naturally, when you deal with individuals who make claims such as Messi being incomparable to another player including Cristiano, individuals that claim Messi is a midfielder, individuals that claim that Messi is a world-class player while semi-retired at the MLS, individuals that claim that Ronaldo plays closer to the box and in the box compared to Messi in his career, individuals that claim that any set-back by Messi is either statistical randomness or his teammates' failure or some other factor... naturally conversations gravitate to dismantling these claims.
    I have said in multiple posts that Messi is a great, I praised him for WC22 - you can check my post history, I explicitly said he has a strong argument for the greatest player of the modern age. These are all part of my post history. I just deal with sycophants and fanboys who say falsehoods - like Messi's 22 WC being the best ever or 2nd best ever (anything he does has to be the best ever you see?). So of course, my conversations is predicated on addressing these claims!
     
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  3. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    when did I ever say anything about Ronaldo's assist vs Croatia..

    Do you count and are vocal about Messi's "vital roles" in few of the goals in 2010 WC? Yeah, i don't think so.

    Man, you are creating a strawman then arguing against it and a lot of these opinions are held by majority of football community so it is not the case of few Messi fanboys (including few articles you've shared trying to bash Messi lol)

    Messi indeed is widely regarded as the better player than Ronaldo. You don't like that. It is as simple as that.
     
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  4. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Case in point!! I disagree with your assertions that you cannot prove or back with any evidence. Secondly, I could not care less about which player is better. I am not a Ronaldo fanboy whose happiness is contingent on his successes. These guys are strangers and in the grand scheme of things I could not care less. I just have my opinions. I am allowed to voice these opinons. That's not rocket science. It is only Messiphiles such as you who get bothered!
     
  5. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I am pretty sure I've praised Ronaldo more than you've praised Messi. Heck, I've been more elaborate at praising Ronaldo than you've ever been at praising Ronaldo.

    It is okay if you want to think I and primarily lessthanjack (but perhaps few others as well) are completely biased towards Messi and Barcelona. I am fine with that.

    Just wanted to point out the irony of you calling others out on their biases when you share a tweet of a guy that made compilations of Messi's lowlights and then you used that to conclude "football algorithms are a complete joke." This is as biased argument as it could possibly be. Lliterally slicing out only the part of performance that favors a preconceived conclusion and ignoring everything else.

    I am sure in your head you think it was justified because there is an overarching, true point you want to make and you actually battle against unfairness and evil of the world yadda yadda yadda.

    It is just that your analysis are consistently one-sided without seemingly any need for reconciliation of opposing beliefs and arguments.

    I don't understand how when you are watching that video on youtube, at any point, a thought doesn't occur in your head: "hmmm perhaps it is too harsh to conclude that sofascore is completely wrong based on these few clips because perhaps Messi did some very good things in those game that overthrow the negatives and he deserves 7,9.. so I won't post that."

    Rather than steelmanning opposing side, you just ignore it and grab any slice of argument that favors "your side." That is pretty obvious from the way you talk about all of this. "Messiphiles", "fanboys".. I don't know what kind of wars are you particapating in.

    That what you call "essays" by lessthanjack are actually argumentations that try to be as fair as he can conceive.
     
  6. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Lessthanjake literally said these scores are "arbitrary".
    But continues to use them in arguments when it suits him.
    This shuts down all productive dialogue.
    Additionally, he will argue around and try to discredit statistics for 4-5 pages straight.
    You cannot establish meaningful dialogue, because 4-5 pages are spent arguing/discrediting actual facts.
    If you are to discuss opinions, he will write a 1000 word essay and find some way to debate any point.
    When you treat the forum like a high school debate team or as a lawyer defending a client, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have an honest, productive dialogue - because like a lawyer, this guy tries to undermine any piece of information, recontextualize, reframe, dismiss - every trick in the book. Then you get 1000 word essays with every nuance, recontextualization, justification.
    So that's why I have learned to not engage in these back and forth essays and just post information. Because, maybe somebody learns something from it or draws their own conclusions.

    As for you, you have insulted me (unprovoked) multiple times. And every time, I have gotten back to you with videos and points of discussions, you move away or drop the conversation entirely.
    So please, do not lecture me on matters of bias.
     
  7. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    You often dont read with comprehension.

    What you call "i have gotten back to you.." usually means I am arguing something you didnt talk about or explicitily agreed with it already.

    For example, Ive said repeatedly that Zidane imo is better than Iniesta, but you still have argued as if I had claimed that Iniesta is better than Zidane. The same for Xavi and countless examples.

    What do you want me to do at that point?

    Then you simply argue for the sake of arguing...

    ...

    Clearly you think of the word arbitrary in this context differently than he does. I am pretty sure that by arbitrary he didnt mean pointless and useless so him continuing to use football algorithms as one perspective of many is not hypocritical of him.

    I understand what he meant and the word arbitrary is perfectly fine word to use to describe algorithms. There is an arbitrary element to algorithms but they still have some merit (a lot of merit actually).

    ...

    There is a difference between raw information and what you call facts. Facts have to be contextualized and interpreted.

    What you call facts are not facts.
     
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  8. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #558 lessthanjake, Sep 30, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2023
    I’ve repeatedly given very detailed accounting of my views about stats and ratings. See here for one of many examples: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/c...of-pure-ability.2126439/page-29#post-41689919. Bottom line is that they’re flawed but useful because we cannot watch and analyze every match (and even when we do, people have biases that affect their perception of what they’ve watched). I’m sorry if this nuance is lost on you, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with utilizing measures that aren’t perfect, as long as we recognize that they aren’t perfect (and, of course, as you’ve noted, I do) and that other means of analysis are also useful. If you want to argue that the word “arbitrary” was the wrong word to use to convey this view about stats/ratings, then that’s fine, but that’s ultimately just a semantic argument, not an argument that my views on this are substantively inconsistent.

    The rest of this is basically just being critical for making factual corrections of your posts and for the introduction of nuance into discussion, which is not a negative in an internet forum.
     
  9. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    You've been a loster for 8 plus years. You have been hevaily criticized by older posters for long essays and double standards.
    No you do not make factual corrections. You try to throw away pools of evidence that inconvenience you. Typical lawyer behaviour. Try to make one piece seem tainted to reject the whole.

    Have we forgotten you trying to dismiss the Messi touch data which is your typical strategy? Except it's from one of the foremost football stat providers?
     
  10. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    If you think that you’ve not made boatloads of factually incorrect posts that I had to correct, then I just don’t know if you’re living in reality. I’ve simply learned that every factual claim you post cannot be assumed to be accurate, because it’s so often incorrect—not always on purpose I assume, but still. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but for you to act like I’ve never had to factually correct things you’ve said is kind of breathtaking to me, and I genuinely don’t know how you could believe that. I won’t bring up or link to examples because honestly it’d just be a bit mean-spirited of me to do so, but please just consider whether you really think what you’ve said here is right.

    And you can try to claim that my posting is widely criticized by other posters, but I think it is appreciated by plenty, including those I disagree with in many discussions. For instance:

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ler-of-all-time.2114820/page-65#post-41484827

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ler-of-all-time.2114820/page-65#post-41499523

    Maybe you don’t appreciate my posts, but perhaps that partially goes to the first point, which is that my posts often involve correcting inaccurate statements you’ve made. No one likes being corrected!
     
  11. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015

    I don't really care for your posts. Most in the community and neutral observers can recognize that what I summarized in the above post is correct.
    In any case, I will let you reply or not reply. But this is an uninteresting discussion, and you know what I said is true! We on bigsoccer enjoy having productive conversations, but sometimes we risk having you derail them!
     
  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    On the touch maps,

    I havent seen those, but of course they have to be interpreted and put into the context.

    Messi touching the ball 40 meters away from goal when 8 defenders and 4,5 teammates are ahead of him is "playing deep"

    Ronaldo touching the ball 40 meters away from goal in transition as the most forward-minded player on his team with Benzema is not "playing deep".

    Barcelona would often encounter low blocks, while Real is a counter-attacking team.

    Ronaldo has played in counter-attacking teams and he has been defending corner kicks and set pieces his whole career so it would make sense that his touch map is deeper on average than someone who plays in a posession oriented team against parked buses.

    So, touchmaps might be factually correct, but conclusion wrapped up with it that Ronaldo has been playing as "deep" as Messi is false. That is not a fact.

    We have all seen them play, we know that already. The audacity tho..
     
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  13. cloudor

    cloudor New Member

    Banfield
    Argentina
    Sep 11, 2023
    #563 cloudor, Oct 1, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023
    Sorry, what is a wide assist? I'm not familiar with that term. Anyway, while everything else you said, while true, it can probably be applied to many "non-opta assists", sort to speak.
     
  14. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Rebounds, deflections and penalty wons for example are considered wide assists or as you said, non opta assists
     
  15. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    No, this is demonstrably false.
    The first thing is, unlike any credible source online, you systematically ignore that Ronaldo simply had a deeper position.
    He played as a traditional right winger/midfield for most of his Manchester United years. This is a fundamentally deeper position with a different role and task from Messi who was always a forward.
    At Madrid, when Mourinho came, he was converted to a left forward. During that same time, Guardiola converted Messi from a right forward to a center forward (in a false nine role).
    To characterize Ronaldo as playing on the counter his entire career, is a mischaracterization an a gross misunderstanding of football.
    Madrid sometimes ceded possession, and sometimes did not. This varies from game to game.
    Either way, the consequence of that is that Ronaldo plays extremely far from the net. His ball possessions especially in a counter-attacking posture are extremely far, which reduces the volume of possessions that could be a goal/shot/assist in a favorable position.
    This was the opposite from Messi who played in a 20m x20m rectangle. He is for the most part almost always in a position to reach the net in some way!

    Secondly, if you are going to go with the counter-attacking argument, it collapses your whole premise! A counter-attack is 2-3 passes and a lot of running/ball carrying. How would you expect Ronaldo to accumulate the volume of passes that Messi does??

    But you credit Messi for that big volume of passes... while penalizing Ronaldo for not doing them because he's in a coutnerattacking system then double-penalizing because "he doesn't play deep". It's absurd!!

    This tells me you are crediting a playstyle, not the end product/contribution / quality of play. And I maintain that Ronaldo showed higher quality and better production.
     
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  16. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    There is honestly so much ambiguity and misleading statements here that I really dont know what to say first.

    All i can do atm js ask questions:

    So was Real a counter-attacking team (compared to Barcelona) or not?

    You say Real was not a counter-attacking team in the first part of the text when talking about touches but then highlight that he was in a counter-attacking system when it comes to pass volume.

    Which is it?

    And based on what did Ronaldo show higher quality and production than Messi?
     
  17. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The real test that we are all dancing around is, not just win a major tournament, but you have to be the main protagonist. Was CR7 the main protagonist of the Portugal 2016 Euro? The top scorer and best player award went to Griezman, who played for the losing side of the final. The bets young player was Renato Sanchez. And note, Griezman won the golden boot on 555 mins played, against CR&'s 3 goals on 625 mins played. So, Griezman was on the losing side, but clearly had a better statistical tournament.

    There is no major national team tournament that CR7 was the protagonist of a victory, since there was only one title.
     
  18. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    YES, Ronaldo definitely were the main protagonist of Portugal in the Euro 2016. He contributed with 6 of the 9 goals Portugal produced. This is 66%. The fact that Griezmann won MVP and golden boot (playing for a FAR superior team) have nothing to do with the FACT that Ronaldo were the main protagonist OF PORTUGAL in the Euro 2016 title. For the love of God, are you going to say that Messi wasn't Argentina's main protagonist in the Copa América title in 2021?
     
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  19. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Not he was not the main protagonist b/c he didn't play the final match! He only played 10 mins! It may be really cruel that he was injured and unable to play, but being on the freaking pitch during the final is prerequisite for main a protagonist of a title
     
  20. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Ronaldo wasn’t really the “main protagonist” in Euro 2016, since he wasn’t at all even clearly Portugal’s best player in the tournament. He missed tons of great chances (including a crucial penalty) and the team skated through mostly on the strength of its defense, and then he wasn’t really there for the finals that the team won (which is particularly important because it was really the only match against a top team, though I guess maybe Croatia counts in retrospect). He did have a few key moments, so I think we can still classify it as good, but I don’t think “main protagonist” is a fair statement for it, and I don’t think anyone would make such an argument if the player who had the performance wasn’t such a big player. The irony for Ronaldo is that he had other Euros he performed better in. I think he was a genuinely very good performer at the Euros overall, but in Euro 2016 in particular he was merely a pretty good piece on a very well-performing team.
     
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  21. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    You are confusing a "great performance" with "main protagonist". The two most important players were Ronaldo and Pepe in that order.
    Aren't you on record praising Messi 2010 WC? How many attacks did he mess up?
     
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  22. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Real Madrid was capable of counter-attacks and in matches against Barcelona after the 5-0 drubbing adopted a more conservative strategy and did not attack in numbers. That does not characterize in any way the majority of Ronaldo's career. Secondly, if you pay attention to what I say, the last segment was showing you the contradiction of your statement - which is you doubly penalize Ronaldo for being counter-attacking! On the one hand, you argue that he did not play deep and played directly and on the other he is inferior to Messi because he makes less passes (when a counter-attack is 3-4 passes total in the whole sequence - so less passes in general). That is the unfairness of your argument!
     
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  23. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Ronaldo scored 2 goals and played a 30 yard throughball between defenders for Nani to beat Hungary in an elimination match. He converted a penalty in a shootout to help his team advance. He dropped back to double team a player, stole the ball, passed to Sanches who was wide open running through midfield, he sprinted down the field at the far post, received Nani's missed shot and then shot at goal to force a diving save which fell to Quaresma for the open goal to beat Croatia. Ronaldo played 4 vital roles in that sequence but wasn't integral to his team's win? He then went on to score a header and assist to Nani to beat Wales and advance to the final. Obvious hater talk to claim Portugal won without Ronaldo or Ronaldo was poor. He created 6 of 9 goals scored in the tournament.
     
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  24. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I don’t recall ever saying much of anything about Messi’s WC 2010, and in any event the performances are just completely different (played very different roles, excelled and struggled in some different ways, etc), so I don’t see the point. I think the argument that Ronaldo was the main protagonist in Euro 2016 is not a strong one. It was a very uneven performance with a few key moments and some bad moments too and basically not playing in the finals, while the defense was very strong throughout. The key moments are enough to make it good overall for me, but the main protagonist was the defense (and if we had to name one person, it’d be Pepe). Again though, I think Ronaldo is a very good Euros performer overall.
     
  25. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You’re arguing a straw man. I didn’t say he was poor. I specifically said the key moments made it good overall. But those moments in an uneven performance don’t make him the main protagonist. Do you genuinely think he was better in the tournament than Pepe?
     

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