Cristiano Ronaldo ~ Your Favorite Player Is So Much Better!! Thread

Lol, okay so first of all those are literally graphics from Managing Madrid (and also aren’t really decipherable as to what each color means). But anyways, receiving the ball on the forward line on the counter with a bunch of space is not the same as receiving the ball in the same area of the pitch but behind the forward line and with banks of defenders in front of you, even if it’d look similar on a heat map. One is receiving the ball in a midfield area and the other isn’t. And we know which player was doing more of which, given the differences in team tactics. Nor is it the same to drop deep to receive the ball x times per game as opposed to 1.5x, 2x, or 3x times. We have all watched these players and absolutely know Ronaldo was positioned on the forward line more often (at least after his non-goalscoring years). It’s not really a debatable premise to anyone with eyes, which is why it is conventional wisdom widely understood in the footballing world.

Anyways, heat maps definitely don’t tell the full story (note: our eyes do, and that’s why people think what they think on this), because they don’t tell us about positioning off the ball (i.e. one player being positioned on the shoulder of the last defender while the other is floating in deeper areas), they don’t tell us whether a touch was on the counter or with lines of players in front, and we also can’t compare heat maps made by different people since they use different methodologies. But, for instance, here’s some heat maps of Messi and Cristiano that I think are pretty striking when we map it onto the tactical differences between the two’s teams that make it so that touches in the same area of the pitch were effectively substantially deeper for Messi (the below are just Cristiano—will have to post the Messi ones in a separate post due to the attachment limit).

 

Messi (omitting a couple random years to have only 10 attachments—you get the picture):












The fact that Messi’s touches are less forward in general is striking, given the tactical differences in the teams. If they had similar roles relative to their team, Messi’s heat map should look a lot higher up the pitch than Ronaldo’s. It doesn’t at all (quite the opposite), and that’s because Messi played a substantially deeper role. But, of course, this shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who actually watched these players.

 

LOL! “This is wrong and I can’t explain why.” Classic. I did a very exhaustive analysis. You just don’t like the results.

 

LOL, if it’s somehow not fair to count this game towards Ronaldo’s goal production because he was playing too deep a role, then I think it’s safe to say that it’s not fair to count essentially any game Messi has ever played towards Messi’s goal production. What an own goal of an argument!

 

Yes, but you are charging Messi just for being at the end of through balls and low crosses at the same time you are charging Ronaldo with "all the stuff Messi does just as well as Messi did them". This is double standard. Messi also never did all the stuff Ronaldo just does as well as Ronaldo did them.

I have never seen Messi do Rainbows, Rabonas, 360's, Elasticos, Chops, Cruyff Turns, Scissors or Step-Overs, etc... I have never seen Messi shoot from back-heels and volleys or back-heel volleys.....I haven't seen bicycle's, scissor kicks, sliding/diving/flying in....I can't recall him creating a shot or pass after using any of these aforementioned tricks/flicks/skills and I also don't remember witnessing him use his shoulders, back, neck, knees, hips, or ass to flick or pass or shoot.

 

What double standard are you talking about? You’re the one that made an analogy to the earlier discussion about Messi getting on the end of through-balls, not me. If you don’t think it was an analogous discussion, then there was no point in bringing up my commentary about it.

The difference here is that I absolutely never said that Messi does all the stuff Ronaldo does as well as Ronaldo does them. So I have no need to defend such an argument. On the other hand, you did make the claim that Ronaldo could do the stuff Messi does just as well as Messi does them. It was a completely ludicrous claim.

 

Nononono I was initially answering the post you said "Saying Messi can get on the end of through-balls at a high level is really not the same as saying that Ronaldo can build-up play and progress the ball from midfield at a high level. We’ve seen one a bunch, and we haven’t seen the other a bunch. That’s the whole point!". And Ronaldo can build-up play and progress the ball from midfield at a high level. And we actually saw him doing this a ton of times. Then you after came with the "precisely everything Messi does at the same level"

I already talked here that Messi is better at dribbling and playmaking.

 

He literally were lined up as a #9 in a 4-3-3 formation in the 08/09 final. Saywhatiwant were talking about the 07/08 final probably when he were lined up as a LMF in a 4-4-2 formation

 

Yes, but the background here is that you had been talking about the particular type of midfield-area passing and playmaking that Messi does. Ronaldo’s play earlier in his career didn’t involve the same type of stuff that you had been saying was easy and that Ronaldo could absolutely do at the level of Messi—he had a different role and did different things, so it’s really not an example of Ronaldo actually doing the stuff you said was easy and that he could definitely do as well as Messi. And, again, to the extent you think he was doing similar stuff, Ronaldo in those years was not as good as prime Messi, so it doesn’t show he can do what Messi did as well as Messi.

 

Well what was said was about “his CL finals with Man Utd,” and how “they” count towards his goal production, so he was obviously trying to make this claim about both of those finals (not to mention that, out of those, it’s the 2009 CL Final where Ronaldo didn’t score, not the 2008 one, so the argument was obviously more naturally aimed at 2009). And it was a silly claim.

And even as applied to the 2007-2008 CL Final, it’s a complete own-goal of an argument, because, even there, he was not playing more of a midfield-like role than Messi typically plays:



If we somehow can’t consider Ronaldo’s goalscoring in that game (or the 2009 CL final) because Ronaldo was playing too much like a midfielder, then we really shouldn’t consider Messi’s goalscoring in most of the games in his career! The argument can’t be that we shouldn’t consider Ronaldo’s goalscoring in a game where he typically got the ball behind the forward line, but that we should ignore the fact that that’s true of Messi in virtually every game.

 

Are you referring to this?: "The vast majority of those passes around midfield are highly overrated and require no skill or vision to perform. Ronaldo could absolutely do this if he so chose in a possession based system."

If your answer is yes, then I maintain my position. Put Ronaldo in the middle and deeper back in a pass oriented/possession team and he would pick out all those same passes. There is no skill or quality that he is lacking to effectively create space and break down a defense. On the other hand, Messi does not have the qualities no matter what role or position/team you put him in to be an aerial weapon, perfectly two-footed, make end to end runs beating everybody to score/assist.....etc

Do you really think a man who can back-heel 20 yards through a crowded box between defenders to a teammates stride and dribble ping-pong balls with the slickest free-style moves cant make diagonal passes if he decided to make that his style and role?

Messi does not have the speed to run faster than Ronaldo
Messi does not have the power to shoot as far as Ronaldo
Messi does not have the footwork to dribble and perform tricks like Ronaldo
Messi does not have the power to leap as high as Ronaldo
Messi does not have the height to reach as high as Ronaldo
Messi does not have the heading ability to score 100+ headers like Ronaldo
Messi does not have the skill to perfectly place back-heels
Messi does not have the strength to out-muscle Ronaldo

Ronaldo does have the technique to play diagonal passes and through balls. (and does to a lesser degree)
Ronaldo does have the ability to dribble in tight spaces. (and does to a lesser degree)

 

The graphics are perfectly decipherable. If you are having trouble reading them, we can orient you to them!
Seconldy, the graphics are not from Managing Madrid, but the excellent Mehedi Hassan who has produced material for ESPN, EA sports, among other entities. As a contributor to Managing Madrid at times, and they re-published some of his graphics. While it is your tried and proven tactic, there is nothing to call into question with respect to the accuracy of the graph. Secondly, you posted graphs from a Barca fanpage (that originates from that page), so I find your tactic beneath you.

Secondly, I categorically reject that Ronaldo played further up the pitch than Messi. Whether in VOLUME or in terms of average positioning.
Your whole argument about lines and such is caricatural and impertinent for several reason:
(1) We are discussing distance to goal with respect to ball reception (you are on record saying Messi increased his touch volume deep - proven false. you are on record saying that Ronaldo scored because he spends more time in the penalty box - proven false)
(2) To what extent and degree Messi faced low-blocks and produced anything of use relative to producing things against mid-blocks or in transition is an answer you could not possibly answer. I can tell you that the bulk of Messi's goals, assists, and productive actions occur IN TRANSITION and against mid-blocks. IN FACT, Ronaldo probably has more productive actions against low-blocks at a high level owing to HEADING ABILITY. We can delve into that shortly
(3) Ronaldo deployed as a wide midfielder for the outstanding majority of his Manchester United matches and received the ball at GREAT distance from the net.
(4) Whether Messi operates more often or better in congested spaces is IMPERTINENT to the discussion.

It is NOT widely understood in the footballing world that Messi played deeper across his career. Anybody with an OUNCE of ball knowledge, knows otherwise.

Your assertions are demonstably false with video footage.
You paint this caricatural image of Ronaldo systematically hanging against the defensive line as the most forward player and playing consistent counter-attacks. This is completely false, and demonstrably false. I legit thought you knew better, and had seen enough Ronaldo to know better. I'm starting to think otherwise.


FINALLY, POST THE LINK TO THOSE HEATMAPS. They are gifs and COMPLETELY PROVE YOU WRONG. Your screencaps are poor quality and deceitful since they are gifs. Messi clearly plays more forward.

 

You arbitrarily picked and compared years in vastly different circumstances, positions, and ages. Of course, it's arbitrary, you define ranges of years that conveniently give you the results you want. For example, taking a year when Ronaldo is 36-37 for the 24th ranked team in the world, and played a number of games against Top 10 opposition, while Messi played against a fewer number of Top 10 at PSG, always was on a Top 10 squad every year. The whole thing is a joke, frankly, and you know it.

 

I hope you are joking?
Do you understand the difference between a False 9 and a Wide Left/Right Midfielder??





Ronaldo collapsing deep into defensive line.



Ronaldo off-screen in long possession sequence - widening field with midfield (Ashley Cole is covering his marauding)

Ronaldo deep-defending as a wide-midfielder.


Ronaldo is off-screen hugging the touchline at the midfield line in Phase 1 build-up. Man Utd plays long, bypassing midfield.

I know the pathetic excuses incoming: "random screenshots" or whatever. I don't write this for you but community members (and non-members) willing to learn and seek truth.

Ronaldo playing as a midfielder is a statement of fact. It is a position that is deeper and has different responsibilities from a Right Forward or False 9. He did play deeper, this is a fact that cannot be argued with - nor am I interested in doing so after Messi's ENTIRE TOUCH HISTORY WAS PRESENTED.

 

LOL! The years I picked were…2008-2009 to 2020-2021 for Messi and 2007-2008 to 2020-2021 for Ronaldo. That’s both their goalscoring primes! (And then I gave the analysis if I widened the years more to include arguable prime years where they weren’t as strong of scorers). Somehow you say that’s “arbitrarily pick[ing]” years. You have no valid retort. Messi is the superior performer against top 10 elo teams.

 

In 2020-21 Ronaldo is an old man. His whole Juve stint is him as an old man and past prime! The whole analysis is an absolute joke and amazing example of stat manipulation! You should show the breakdown of number of top 10 teams they played in these years. The whole thing is a cute joke! How many top ten teams did Messi even face in 2020-21! What is the composition of these matches? CL/League/Cups etc. Why aren't you including equal number of years (starting 2007-08 for Messi? He was UEFA TOTT as a right forward as I showed you). Whole thing is a joke, I could write an essay about it, but it is par for course with your methods and posts.

 

12:15

 

I’m not interested in long-form debate about this. Ronaldo did not play “deeper” than Messi. This is something that is widely understood. Your attempt to argue otherwise relies on looking at heat maps which still show Ronaldo with much more touches in the penalty area, while completely ignoring that the different tactical systems they played in produce touches in different areas of the pitch.

The following should be blindingly obvious to anyone, but what is “deep” on the pitch depends on the situation. In a counterattack, you can be the furthest man forward and still receive the ball around the halfway line, while in the patient attack construction of a possession-based system, you can receive the ball in the attacking third and still have two lines of defenders in front of you. The latter is a touch further forward on the pitch but is actually a “deeper” touch relative to the situation. As I’ve said many times, it is not inherently easier to score in either system overall, because there’s a tradeoff between how far up the pitch the team has the ball and how many defenders are behind the ball. While neither system is inherently more effective due to that trade off, that trade off has a large effect on heat maps, and to have your interpretation of heat maps completely ignore that is how you get to a ludicrous conclusion. What is relevant here is how often these players were dropping into the areas that their midfields were in, rather than staying on the forward line. The actual areas of the pitch that their midfielders are in will be further up on average for Messi, so if he dropped into midfield only as much or less than Ronaldo then we’d expect his heat map to look substantially further forward. And yet, it’s Ronaldo that has the further forward heat maps (and certainly when we compare touches in the penalty area). So the bottom line is that heat maps actually go against your argument, once we actually consider the obviously different contexts in which these heat maps were created. And that’s not surprising, since you’re just trying to make an argument that is completely contrary to what our eyes would tell us from having watched the games.

LOL! His whole Juventus stint is past his prime, you say? Okay, let’s show the data without it:

Messi vs. Top 10 Elo Opponents (2008-2009 to 2020-2021)

Goals per 90 mins: 0.64
Non-PK Goals per 90 mins: 0.53
Assists per 90 mins: 0.21
G+A per 90: 0.853
Non-PK G+A per 90: 0.735
Avg. WhoScored Rating: 8.12

Ronaldo vs. Top 10 Elo Opponents (2007-2008 to 2017-2018)

Goals per 90 mins: 0.72
Non-PK Goals per 90 mins: 0.56
Assists per 90 mins: 0.11
G+A per 90: 0.828
Non-PK G+A per 90: 0.668
Avg. WhoScored Rating: 7.62

Doesn’t help Ronaldo at all. Messi is simply the superior performer overall against top 10 elo rating opponents.

 

Of course!
I am not willing to invest time dignifying essays completely denying hard facts and reality.

Messi La Liga 2020-21 Heatmap


Ronaldo 2019-20 Heatmap


IF WE ONLY LOOK AT OPEN PLAY:


2020/21 Season for Ronaldo and Messi

Arguing further about Messi having "deeper positioning" than Ronaldo as a midfielder with Man Utd when Ronaldo has deeper positioning as a STRIKER FOR JUVENTUS, is as much a waste of my time as arguing with crazy conspiracy-theorists.

 

Why on earth are you removing penalty kicks? Remove penalty kicks your god doesn't have a WC. Data manipulation as usual.

Not reading your essay, present data or we will move forward with the discussion.

Messi has MORE open-play penalty area receptions NOT less in their respective careers.
Keep perpetuating FALSEHOODS.

 

Do you not see that I included the data with penalties as well? Of course, Ronaldo got more penalties in these games, so that helps him a good deal, but he’s still behind. Messi is just superior in this regard (i.e. in games against top 10 elo rating opponents) and there’s nothing you can do about it.

And I know you’ve read what I said. You just say you won’t read something when you have no valid response but want the last word. But I’m certainly happy with us moving forward with the discussion, since I’m confident that virtually any unbiased reader who has watched these players would agree with me.

 

I genuinely stopped reading, and I am not interested in the last word. My posts have literally contained their touch history. A reminder I am arguing with someone who cannot differentiate between a false 9, right forward, and a Right/Left wide midfielder.
The only years Ronaldo played closer to the net than Messi were his last 2-3 at Real Madrid.

 

What were the average elo difference?

 

Yeah, I’m not going back and counting elo advantages over hundreds of games. Would literally take me hours, and basically involve redoing all the work I did to create the initial post on this (which itself took hours), since I’d have to re-find all the top-10-elo-opponent games. But both of these guys were on similarly good teams with a large array of matches against teams across the top 10 over the years, so it’s not going to be meaningfully different either way. And we already know that Messi produced more when facing teams that actually had higher elo ratings (and, as you know, I did count the elo difference in that analysis and it was equal). You’re welcome to take the time to run the elo difference numbers for this analysis, though—wouldn’t take you any less time than it’d take me.

 

2 Penalty box receptions


1 Penalty box reception


1 Penalty box reception


1 penalty box reception


1 penalty box reception (from set-piece)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XOITV1mqzU&ab_channel=Hris7owComps
1-2 (video quality is poor, probably 1) penalty box reception

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpnAcVb1Z2c&ab_channel=CrixRonnieOfficial
3 penalty box receptions (1 is from corner kick)


This is a sick joke that you are perpetuating. Not engaging in accurate dialogue at all!