Cristiano Ronaldo - Messi vs. Zinedine Zidane - Ronaldo Luis ; Is Modern Football Overrated ??

I will probably not be able to respond to Carlito's counter argument today, albeit I think it is safe to assume that Carlito's argument is his typical propaganda where he conveniently merges blow out win games and competitive margin games into the same wall of evidence, at the same time that he also decides to further prove my point that Ronaldo is great for short spells but lacks consistency across games, versus Benzema who is not as great in single games but tends to offer essentially the same end product across games??

Carlito somehow rates Cristiano Ronaldo 2018 - 2020 as a better player than Ronaldo Nazario 1996 - 1998 (or for that matter, Ronaldo Nazario 2002 - 2005), but then he cannot explain why Juventus with the greatest player that ever lived is for some reason literally registering worse results across all competitions; Serie A, Coppa Italia, and Champions League.

Apparently, only "Ronaldo haters" like me are sufficiently aware of the spectacular contradiction at play here.

 

I had not yet responded to this, and I will probably not have the opportunity to adequately and extensively respond to this at any point in the immediate future, but... I mean... I think it is patently obvious that Cristiano Ronaldo is not a great passer, never has been a great passer, and never will be a great passer... This is precisely why the statistics are as one-sided as they are in favor of Messi, in direct games where Messi has played against Ronaldo.

35 games by Messi and Ronaldo

16 wins Messi / 10 wins Ronaldo

9 draws Messi / 9 draws Ronaldo

22 goals Messi / 19 goals Ronaldo

12 assists Messi / 1 assist Ronaldo

Cristiano Ronaldo the 'unreal' passer completed only 1 assist after 35 games, which is already tellingly disappointing, but becomes all the more a picture of mediocrity after acknowledging the well documented fact that Barcelona has had a disastrous defensive record in away games for the better part of an entire decade...

0-4 defeat vs. Bayern Munich (2013)

0-1 defeat vs. Atletico Madrid (2014)

2-3 defeat vs. Bayern Munich (2015)

0-2 defeat vs. Atletico Madrid (2016)

0-4 defeat vs. Paris Saint Germain (2017)

0-3 defeat vs. Juventus (2017)

0-3 defeat vs. Roma (2018)

0-4 defeat vs. Liverpool (2019)

2-8 defeat vs. Bayern Munich (2020)

0-3 defeat vs. Juventus (2020)

As demonstrated above, Barcelona has a disastrous aggregate result of 4 goals scored versus 32 goals conceded... In other words, Barcelona has conceded 8 times as many goals as they have scored in away games, and yet Ronaldo the 'unreal' passer only has 1 assist to show for himself; is this a conspiracy theory against Cristiano Ronaldo, or is this merely the logical conclusion of the self-evident fact that Ronaldo is not, never has been, and never will be, an 'unreal' passer??

The reality is that said humiliating 1-to-12 difference (1 assist by Ronaldo versus 12 assists by Messi in direct games) would never in a million years happen to an actually 'unreal' passer like Francesco Totti, if Francesco Totti had ever in his prime played for a super-club like Real Madrid in the post-2009 era. At any rate, this is essentially why I have a very difficult time appreciating or respecting Cristiano Ronaldo fans, precisely because of this dishonest, childish, pedantic, toxic, pseudointellectual habit of making Ronaldo a (false) great at everything... even when it is patently obvious that Ronaldo was never a truly great passer, as his statistics comprehensively indicate, especially in the difficult games where Ronaldo was too busy taking too many shots from far out to be able to assist his teammates.

Harry Kane is a much better passer than Cristiano Ronaldo. And I can confidently say this, even though I have not watched Harry Kane anywhere near as much as Cristiano Ronaldo; passing ability is easy to see when you have a good eye for that talent... Cristiano Ronaldo is relatively unintelligible as a passer when compared against actually talented passers. In any case, Ronaldo's heel-pass flick is the only aspect of his passing that is clearly above of the ordinary; this alone is not nearly enough to elevate him to the level of the passing elite.

As for the passing elite 'categories' below; the players are mentioned in order of time and generation, starting with the oldest players, and ending with the newest players. In other words, the players are not mentioned in order of preference.



1st-tier passing ability:

Michel Platini, Gheorghe Hagi, Ronaldinho.



2nd-tier passing ability:

Johan Cruyff, Diego Maradona, Michael Laudrup, Carlos Valderrama, Dennis Bergkamp, Luis Figo, Francesco Totti, Roman Riquelme, Andrea Pirlo, Xavi Hernandez, Messi.



3rd-tier passing ability:

Roberto Carlos, Zinedine Zidane, Pavel Nedved, David Beckham, Steven Gerrard, Cesc Fabregas, Mesut Ozil, Neymar, James Rodriguez, Kevin De Bruyne, Harry Kane.



4th-tier passing ability:

Michel, Pep Guardiola, Sebastian Veron, Rivaldo, Michael Ballack, Deco, Xabi Alonso, Frank Lampard, Andres Iniesta, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Dani Alves, Toni Kroos.



The series of 'categories' above are not at all purely defined on the basis of passing ability as an isolated ability, instead, the categories above are significantly defined by the ability to combine at least two different high difficulty abilities when passing the ball; for example, a high difficulty ball retention skill that itself pre-assists or directly assists the assist itself; players who can consistently do that, are rated as the best passers of all time per my system of categories.

The above logic is not purely nor subjectively based on my personal preferences, but rather based significantly on the fact that high difficulty games by and large tend to require more than simply being technically perfect at passing as an isolated skill; this is why, for example, technically perfect passers like David Beckham, Sebastian Veron, and Cesc Fabregas, significantly decline per my measurement system, as all three of them never demonstrated that they could consistently combine and create music where the musical composition consisted of high difficulty ball retention and high difficulty passing, as consistently converted into one seamless, extremely rare, end product... At any rate, this is consistently important in high difficulty games, which is why it is central to my measurement system.

Furthermore, the well-roundedness of the passers themselves is a secondary factor, but still serves as a meaningful part of the aggregate equation. Meanwhile, decision-making is also a secondary but meaningful part of the aggregate equation; for example, I rate Harry Kane as an uniquely efficient passer per his role, as he needs the bare minimum of opportunities to make a difference with his passing ability, which is a very rare playmaking ability relative to his striker role.

In conclusion:

Cristiano Ronaldo does not belong to the above lists, but sure, if you take an amazing career that has expanded across more than a complete decade... you will surely find many great passes by Cristiano Ronaldo, almost exclusively in easy games where Real Madrid was already winning by 3 or more goals before Ronaldo registered his 'unreal' passing ability. This is the textbook definition of propaganda, and frankly, I am neither dumb enough nor uneducated enough to became a modern victim of this aggressive brand of brain washing.

For some reason I tend to think that you are better than this Carlito, but almost every single damn time you prove yourself a dishonest propagandist when it comes to inflating every single area of Cristiano Ronaldo's game; but again, the reality is that Ronaldo was at no point in his (amazing) career good enough for 3rd-tier category passing ability, let alone 'unreal' passing ability. And honestly, Ronaldo's ball retention ability is also 3rd-tier at best, if it even is 3rd-tier.

Call me a 'hater' all you want, but the fundamental branches of football can reasonably be divided into the following 4 branches; passing ability; goal scoring ability; ball retention ability; and dribbling ability; and in this comprehensively essential regard, Ronaldo was in the goat-tier realm in terms of finishing (goal scoring) ability only, but then Ronaldo was not even close to being goat-tier at 3 out of 4 of the fundamental branches of football.

At any rate, Ronaldo was 4th-tier at best in terms of passing, 3rd-tier at best in terms of ball retention, and 2nd-tier at best in terms of dribbling; in fact his dribbling ability in the best of times always was distinctly 2nd-tier; there's simply not enough freakish athleticism in any human body that could sufficiently negate the fact that Cristiano Ronaldo simply doesn't have the prodigy-level dribbling ability of players like Diego Maradona, Roberto Baggio, Ronaldo Nazario, Zinedine Zidane, Lionel Messi, etc. This is not unimportant; for one thing, this is not coincidentally why Ronaldo's dribbling ability was not nearly as influential in high difficulty games where his exceptional athleticism was routinely, meaningfully, sufficiently neutralized by the tactical cohesion of the opponents.

In this regard, Cristiano Ronaldo is simply a very unique footballer; never was the most dazzling dribbler, even if he had impressive statistics in his early dribbling days; when dribbling or when in ball retention mode, his movements always are mechanical and as a result predictable, with an unimpressive limit of usefulness in high difficulty situations; a freakish athlete, yes, but not a freakish talent, and not even his ridiculously well-rounded finishing ability was enough to sufficiently compensate for his underrated defects or limits in at least two of the basic branches of football.

 

I felt the instinctive inclination to include Johan Cruyff in the first-tier group, but Maradona not so much; Maradona at no point in his career displayed the passing genius of Platini, Hagi, or Ronaldinho. I mean, if I were to include Maradona in the first-tier group, I would be doing so more on the basis of hypothesis as opposed to on the basis of verifiable reality... it would be come a religious predetermination in essence, where Maradone deserves bonus points on the basis of two primary factors; unfulfilled potential as well as name recognition, which is precisely why Maradona undeservedly gets or steals Valderrama's place in the Copa America All Time Team.

At any rate, I think including Maradona in the first-tier group is not completely unreasonable, I can see why it would be reasonable as an argument, but again, if I'm honest, I just don't see enough arguments for why Maradona actually deserves to be there; I mean, what is it about Maradona's passing that should place him above the likes of Michael Laudrup or Messi?

 

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy, an art and a science, of creating the impression of refuting an argument, when in reality the proper idea that was supposed to be in question, was never actually questioned to any real nor meaningful extent. A person who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."



My actual argument:

"Gheorghe Hagi is a better passer than Diego Maradona."



Your straw man argument:

"Maradona in addition to being a great passer in his own right, is a better playmaker than Hagi, therefore Maradona must be as good or better at passing versus Hagi."



My actual argument (again):

"Beckham was a better passer than Scholes, but Scholes was a better playmaker."

"Hagi was a better passer than Maradona, but Maradona was a better playmaker."

"Fabregas was a better passer than Xavi, but Xavi was a better playmaker."



Your straw man argument (again):

"If you want to compare Maradonas role and importance for Napoli (particularly after the acquisition of carnevale and Careca) he was like Deco and Ronaldinho COMBINED."



Good old character assassination of Hagi as an overrated cult-status hack who only was good in the playmaker role for Galatasaray in an irrelevant league, in order to inflate Maradona's status as one of several untouchable legends. Putting down the Hagis and Tottis of the world, in order to further inflate the Maradonas and the Cristiano Ronaldos of the world; I mean, this is business as usual for you.

To be fair, I would find your argument reasonable if it were remotely true, but the truth is that Maradona in his playmaker role was past his physical best; at that stage of his career (post-1986), Maradona rarely if ever was fit enough to have the physical endurance, the injury-tolerance, and the overall tactical and statistical presence of true midfield playmakers like Deco, Ruud Gullit (before the knee injuries), Zinedine Zidane, Andrea Pirlo, Xavi Hernandez, etc.

Therefore, why should I willingly delude myself into thinking that Maradona in his post-1986 playmaker guise, was basically Ronaldinho and Deco rolled into one virtually perfect player?

In typical fashion, you arbitrarily decided to move the goalpost, in order to dishonestly or perhaps just ignorantly attack my argument; and I presume that your lack of comprehension or appreciation regarding my argument, is merely the predictable result of your religious treatment of both Maradona and Cristiano Ronaldo, both of whom you inflate as untouchable players who are the greatest ever players in presumably all areas of the game.

Maradona was like Deco, Ronaldinho, and Messi, rolled into one perfect player... which explains why Maradona never demonstrated it in the actual Champions League, the actual World Cup (where he never came remotely close to Deco's influence and industry in the midfield, and where his passing never was as extraordinary let alone better than Ronaldinho), the UEFA Cup, the Copa America, or La Liga.

And I say all of the above, as a person who honestly thinks (reluctantly but honestly thinks) that Maradona is probably the greatest of all time.

What exactly would the reference point be?

Reliable statistics of players of past eras do not actually exist; it is hard work that does not actually pay, which is why studious fans like me have to do the slow hard work of watching the games, and then shaping a consistent narrative after the fact.

At any rate, my reference point is in general terms the fact that I actually enjoy learning about subjects that I am passionate about; which is why I have one of the most extensive video collections in the world, specifically targeting the great players of the post-1990 eras (the modern eras), and I have actually watched all of the games in my collection.

And indeed, I think that watching complete games is an infinitely better reference point and/or practice in general, than your method of watching short and sweet misleading youtube videos, as you go about your mission in life of bringing down players not named Cristiano Ronaldo, in order to inflate said inflated brand i.e. Cristiano Ronaldo. You are aware that bubbles can only be inflated until a certain point, right?

And again, with the above sentiments in mind, I have to ask: Who exactly are those "preferred" players that I inflate?

You could very easily argue that my preferred players include Diego Maradona himself, Luis Figo, Gheorghe Hagi, Roberto Baggio, Carlos Valderrama, Roman Riquelme, and lately Enzo Francescoli; I mean, it quite literally varies depending on the day of the week.

Ronaldinho is not exactly one of my preferred players, and yet Ronaldinho is one of only three players in my first-tier passers list; I mean, why is it that I have not inflated any of my preferred players into first-tier territory the same way you systematically do with Cristiano Ronaldo in every area of the game every single month of the year?

Your statement that I "inflate" my preferred players simply holds no water; if it were up to me, Maradona would actually be in the first-tier of passers, I mean, Maradona is quite probably the player who best represents everything that I defend in my arguments against Cristiano Ronaldo; so why would I not want to include Maradona in my first-tier passers list? In any event, if I am mistaken, the mistake is not guided by a desire to inflate my preferred players; which includes Maradona.

My general understanding of Maradona v Hagi:

Maradona was by a significant margin better at ball retention, and quite probably the best ball retention specialist of all time, and that is the unique ability (not his passing ability, which is not particularly unique compared to other legendary players) that defines him as a first-tier all time legend; the fact that he could open and close passing angles better than almost any other player in the history of the game.

Maradona arguably by definition was a less spectacular passer in any debate versus Hagi; Maradona's primary method of creativity is his extraordinary ball retention ability, he facilitates play and opens up passing angles with his ball retention, and he is arguably without an equal in that dimension of the game, and when he does pass the ball, the play itself has been pre-facilitated to the point that a relatively-simple-but-perfectly-executed-pass will get the job done.

But again, Maradona's passing ability was never quite at the same level as Platini, Hagi, or Ronaldinho, in my view.

As for the vague idea of so-called "passing genius", what I generally mean is that Hagi with one try, regardless of the position on the pitch, regardless of the type of pass; Hagi has an unique ability to deliver ridiculously difficult passes, and similarly but in a different area of the game, Hagi also had an unique ability for scoring ridiculous powerful goals. In terms of powerful shot and/or passing ability, Hagi simply has a touch of genius that Maradona rarely if ever replicated with any real consistency.

There is no marked "playmaking" difference at all between Hagi La Liga 1991/92 and Hagi World Cup 1994, in fact, if anything, Hagi La Liga 1991/92 was better as a playmaker; more complete, his ability to make runs and cross the ball was better, and his long balls and every other pass in his repertoire was already as great as it ever was.

The difference between Hagi World Cup 1990 and Hagi World Cup 1994 is almost certainly a cultural difference, as opposed to a difference defined by age-related "playmaking" maturity; in simpler terms, Hagi's collection of experiences in La Liga 1991/92 and the Serie A 1992/93 prepared him for World Cup 1994, but I do not think that it was a case of Hagi becoming a better playmaker purely or primarily because of age-related maturity, as much as it was simply a case of Hagi (unlike Maradona) not enjoying the benefit of Argentina's cultured league.

Hagi's early career was spent in an irrelevant league with little to no standing in the prestigious world of name recognition and propaganda, and he required one inconsistent season in La Liga before he emerged as a world class playmaker in La Liga 1992/92, where he was tragically and immediately discarded by an ignorant Real Madrid side that continued to decline in the seasons after Hagi's misguided exit.

Maradona's early career was spent not only in a cultured league with plenty of history, but in Argentina of all places; the nation that had very recently won the World Cup 1978 in Argentina; the nation that had produced Mario Kempes and Ricardo Bochini in the years prior to Diego Maradona. That benefit of being born in one of several prolific countries, is an underrated benefit that Hagi never actually enjoyed; Hagi never actually enjoyed the advantage of playing for a national team that could literally win the Euro without Hagi, as Argentina did in 1991 and again in 1993 without Maradona, after having failed with Maradona in 1987 and again in 1989.

So to summarize: Maradona enjoyed significant advantages versus Hagi, and even then, Hagi's La Liga 1991/92 is demonstrably better than anything Maradona did in La Liga... And I would argue that Hagi's improvement as a playmaker was far more related to Hagi adjusting to better leagues like La Liga or the Serie A, than it was related to Hagi becoming older and more mature with age.

Put differently, my argument simply is that Hagi would have become a better playmaker at an earlier stage of his career, at 25 years of age for example (World Cup 1990), if Hagi had made the move to La Liga in 1988 instead of in 1990; but again, football in that era was slower, and players born in the wrong countries were already 25 years old or 26 years old by the time they moved on to better and bigger leagues, as was the case with Hagi.

At any rate, the argument that Hagi was not "innately great at playmaking as proven at World Cup 1990" holds no water, especially in any argument where Maradona 1986 is being inflated into a great playmaker comparable to actual playmakers like Michel Platini 1984 and Johan Cruyff 1974, both of whom offer more than Maradona 1986 in terms of playmaking.

Again with the straw man argument: this vague and romantic idea that Maradona supposedly "ran games" is intrinsically related to playmaking, which is not my actual argument, given the fact that my argument is about passing ability, the consistency and difficulty of the actual passes, not about "running games" which is honestly an extremely vague and misleading statement in its own right.

Ronaldinho was the first player arguably since Michel Platini, to deliver unreal passing in the most difficult games. Maradona's passing ability does not stand out as uniquely extraordinary when compared against other great passers; Platini was better; Hagi was almost certainly better; Johan Cruyff was almost certainly better; Michael Laudrup was very much not an inferior passer; Michel of Spain was in the same ball park or very close to it, etc. Ronaldinho's passing was in a league of its own similar to Michel Platini.

On the other hand, Maradona had so much class that it was easy for him to appear to have the skillset that was required to impose himself as passer in the same first-tier as Platini, but again, Maradona never actually delivered on that promise; that is essentially my argument... I want to give credit on the basis of actual results, rather than on the basis of unfulfilled potential.

And again, you put me in a situation where I think that I should repeat myself: Ronaldinho is not actually one of my so-called "preferred" players, but I do think that his passing ability speaks for itself. I would prefer to have Valderrama and Figo do what Ronaldinho's entire role was, but again, Ronaldinho's talent for the killer pass, any type of killer pass, is undeniable in my book.

In a nutshell: to entertain the idea that Maradona "in his latter Napoli seasons" was a better passer than Ronaldinho... is simply more of your typical religious spin on reality; you are accidentally or deliberately obscuring playmaking and passing into the same convenient premise, where being better at playmaking is equivalent to being better at passing, in which case Xavi could arguably be the best passer of all time.

 

Maradona is a better passer than Cruyff only when you ignore the concept of relativity, but when you try to account for relativity; I mean, I would argue that Cruyff in his time appears to be a more outstanding passer than Maradona in his time; Cruyff was Pythagoras in boots because he was such a visionary passer relative to his time.

At any rate, I don't remember Maradona ever getting that much attention specifically as a passer; and he was obviously an amazing passer don't get me wrong, but in the same tier as Platini? I don't think Maradona ever consistently or sufficiently delivered on that promise.