Cristiano Ronaldo - Messi vs. Zinedine Zidane - Ronaldo Luis ; Is Modern Football Overrated ??

To add to your insightful comments, I also find it interesting that Xabi Alonso -- not Sergio Busquets, for example -- but Xabi Alonso, has become arguably the ideal midfielder of the modern age; for example, Toni Kroos I'd argue was a similar type of deep lying midfielder.

At any rate, I don't see this changing any time soon. Football has evolved in such a way that I think it will get stuck or become stagnant (essentially) in its current state for a long time to come. Simply put; forward players are expected to defend at such a high rate, that they no longer realistically have much of a legitimate license to serve as creative outlets (not in the traditional sense, at least), at the same time that they have significantly facilitated the defensive labor of deep lying midfielders, which is why the traditional defensive midfielders are in decline, at the same time that Xabi Alonso types are increasingly becoming more useful.

The only way I could see this changing in such a dramatic fashion that the defensive pressing by the forward is rendered as outdated, is if the central defenders evolved to become vastly superior players in terms of ball carrying and ball retention, which I cannot see happening any time soon, because players who are naturally good at ball carrying and at ball retention are traditionally pushed into roles that are not primarily defensive; so this cycle will continue for some time, I suspect.

Paul Pogba reminds me a lot of Neymar; a lot of obvious traditional talent, but the application of that talent is frustratingly inconsistent especially in the difficult games against strong opponents. Normally, the inability to sufficiently apply the talent is constant in a player's career, which is why Pogba and Neymar are likely to finish their careers as massive underachievers; albeit at least Pogba did win the World Cup after all.

 

My argument did not began nor ended as the result of something that was primarily motivated out of finding some random but convenient statistical pattern; instead, my argument began out of what was a very intuitive understanding, from having watched Ronaldo for years in La Liga. At any rate, I had absolutely no idea about how the data would align ultimately, but I was nonetheless convinced that the data would reinforce what is easy to see with the naked eye.

Ronaldo abused his unprecedented financial bargaining power over how Real Madrid's tactics functioned, and Real Madrid essentially functioned as a statistical farm for Ronaldo, which is always or almost always detrimental. At any rate, you are wrong about my motivations, and ultimately you are wrong about my argument; I was looking at the most consistent traditional factor that could best explain what I could easily see with the naked eye. The data immediately reinforced my argument; Ronaldo received an unprecedented percentage of Real Madrid's service capacity, which is easy to see with the naked eye, and is categorically not some random statistical pattern that resulted randomly.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic scored the same quantity of header goals as Cristiano Ronaldo, in 77 competitive margin games. The same thing would never happen with ball retention, ball carrying, dribbling, or passing; Zinedine Zidane and David Beckham would never in any given circumstance have literally the same statistical impact in terms of technique, ball retention, ball carrying, and dribbling. But when it comes to header ability, the vast majority of passes are aimed at the space, not at the player; which means that if the pass to the space is good enough, then Zlatan Ibrahimovic's header ability will consistently be good enough to convert the same quantity of header goals as Cristiano Ronaldo. For example, Karim Benzema literally proved that throughout his La Liga career.

At any rate, when a club is as disproportionally stacked with elite talent per position, as Real Madrid was throughout the Messi Ronaldo Era, that means that the club can consistently facilitate service to the point that merely a good finisher will essentially give you the same value as Cristiano Ronaldo. Merely a good finisher like Morata can consistently score the 2-1 goal to win a competitive margin game; the more complete finisher that Ronaldo is offers you no coherent advantage when Real Madrid's service machinery is well capable of consistently facilitating goal scoring, again, to the point that truly exceptional finishing is not even required in the first place.

For reference, Gerd Muller was not considered to be as valuable as Johan Cruyff; because in the 1970s, the social media manipulation apparatus was nowhere near sophisticated enough that it could convince fans that Gerd Muller and Johan Cruyff were equally valuable, despite the fact that most human eyes can intuitively and immediately see that Johan Cruyff was comprehensively the superior talent if not for statistical reasons, then for reasons that supersede statistics. In your eyes, this would be nothing more than a random statistical pattern used against Gerd Muller.

Whatever the case, Cristiano Ronaldo is never an elite playmaker, never an elite passer, never an elite ball retention specialist, etc. So when Real Madrid comprehensively invested the percentage of service shares that Ronaldo was allowed to buy with his intimidating bargaining power; the inevitable outcome was worse results for the club, because Real Madrid could not find the way of proportionally maximizing Ronaldo's true elite qualities; finishing and header ability, two abilities that Real Madrid could consistently facilitate to the point that Ronaldo was not even necessary to obtain roughly equal results in La Liga. This problem is unique to players like Cristiano Ronaldo; which is precisely why players like Cristiano Ronaldo traditionally were regarded as inferior talents.

How would Real Madrid facilitate Ronaldo's lack of elite passing ability?

It cannot be done.

How would Real Madrid facilitate Ronaldo's lack of elite ball retention ability?

It cannot be done.

Which is why Real Madrid did better as a team when the percentage of the service was not uniquely built around Ronaldo. Real Madrid 2009/10 produced better results, with a less talented team, and with Ronaldo having played less games; because Real Madrid 2009/10 was not wasting their service on the pointless exercise of artificially inflating Cristiano Ronaldo's perceived worth in La Liga.

Ronaldo is not truly elite at many of the traditional abilities e.g. dribbling, ball retention, technique, passing, playmaking, etc. It is not a random statistical pattern when the data consistently demonstrates what was always obvious to the intuitive mind; that Cristiano Ronaldo is not exceptionally elite nor productive outside of his ability to score goals, and that when a club is sufficiently superior enough that it can facilitate the conversion of goals to the extent that Ronaldo's Real Madrid consistently could; then investing a greater percentage of service on Ronaldo will inevitably yield worse results for the club, as it means that players not named Ronaldo will score less statistics, at the same time that Ronaldo himself will score roughly the same statistics he always did (in the competitive margin games that actually decided the league title).

The fact that you are willing to call this a ridiculous conspiracy theory, with all due respect, tells me that you do not fundamentally understand how this sport functions at league level. You essentially want to excuse all of Ronaldo's and Messi's failures or disappointing outcomes as nothing more than crude conspiracy theories, at the same time that you also fail to make the bare minimum of work that is required to be aware of the fact Luis Suarez literally produced the same value in La Liga as Ronaldo, from 2015 to 2018.

Agree to disagree my friend.

 

Are we talking about the same Olivier Giroud??

Last I checked Olivier Giroud scored a grand total of ZERO goals at World Cup 2018, which France won.

Fortunately for France, their team was evenly balanced with the selfless Antoine Griezmann allowing plenty of tactical freedom for Kylian Mbappe to be as useful as he could be. If it were Cristiano Ronaldo in Griezmann's shoes, you can rest assured that Kylian Mbappe's World Cup performance would have been reduced to a distant secondary sidekick role.

 

Post 2006 era players are by default overrated by you. This works both ways my friend. At any rate, you continue to make the common mistake of not identifying the defensive context that precluded Zidane from the same greatness at Serie A level, which he was able to repeatedly achieve at the less defensive tournaments World Cup 1998, Euro 2000, World Cup 2006, etc.

Keep in mind that while Chelsea 2004/05 was, in tactical terms, an extremely defensive team, it also scored goals almost literally at the same rate as Arsenal 2003/04, and it also scored goals at roughly the same rate as Manchester United 2007/08. In other words, defensive tactics should not be defined purely on the basis of goals scored per game, but rather on the basis of the actual service; for example, the fact that Chelsea 2004/05 had a special talent for converting crucial 1-0 wins or 2-1 wins, in games where Chelsea created close to no service in the actual game. That is defensive football, even if Chelsea's extraordinary conversation rate per service hides the fact that Chelsea was not by any stretch an attacking team.

At any rate, that is essentially the defensive tactical nature that precluded Zidane from true greatness in the Serie A; Zidane's improved performances in the Euro or the World Cup are far more the result of those tournaments being less defensive, than it is the result of Zidane mysteriously getting better as a player.

Zidane experienced the opposite of Messi and Ronaldo; Zidane was better in the less defensive Euro and World Cup; on the other hand, Messi and Ronaldo were better in the less defensive club context. But again, Zidane fundamentally is the same player in Serie A 1999/00 or Euro 2000; same exact player, and the improved end product is merely the end product of less efficient defending in the Euro versus the Serie A.

Cristiano Ronaldo vs. Uruguay 2018 is fundamentally an ordinary player; not only is his end product radically different, but what Ronaldo offers outside of his capacity to score goals is also radically different, which is categorically not the case with Zinedine Zidane.

 

40 goals + La Liga title.

When Benzema does it, it suddenly is correctly perceived for what it really is; a great achievement to be sure, but it does not make Benzema an equal to Messi.

Furthermore, Benzema did it with less service generated by Real Madrid, and also having received a lesser percentage of said lesser service. For example, Benzema's high scoring rate compared to his teammates is the result of bad finishing by the likes of Vinicius; Benzema's much higher scoring rate is not meaningfully the result of him enjoying a far greater percentage of service.

If Real Madrid 2019/00 had had finishers of the same quality as Higuain 2009 - 2012, or Benzema 2009 - 2018, then Real Madrid 2019/00 probably is another one of those league campaigns were Real Madrid scores 95+ points.

 

I have no qualms at all in comparing Benzema to post-2015 poacher Cristiano Ronaldo; Ronaldo is obviously the better player, but my point is that the margin of difference between Ronaldo in his poacher form versus Benzema in his prime is not at all statistically important. Long story short: Ronaldo will not propel Real Madrid into the La Liga title; Benzema will also not propel Real Madrid into the La Liga title; the statistical impact or difference between Ronaldo and Benzema in this regard is pointless.

The only actual difference in said regard between Ronaldo in his poacher form versus Benzema, is that Benzema will never be quite as great as Ronaldo was in the 3-0 win vs. Juventus 2018, for example; but Benzema will probably offer the same end product across the 2 legs, maybe 1 open play and 1 assist in the first leg, and then another 1 open play goal in the second leg. The end result for Real Madrid would essentially be identical, even if Ronaldo's more impressive performance in a 3-0 blow out win will be better than any single performance by Benzema.

At any rate, the end product is essentially identical or very close to being identical; Ronaldo just happens to score the majority of his goals in blow out win games or in high scoring games, on the other hand, Benzema scores less goals but more consistently across the two games. This statistical pattern repeats itself in La Liga as well. Ronaldo in his post-2015 poacher role is not actually adding anywhere near sufficient statistical superiority versus prime Benzema, that you could ever convincingly argue that the titles won with Ronaldo in his poacher form would not have been won with Benzema playing as the primary goal scorer.

In any case, you will never understand nor appreciate this fact as you are far too committed to the Cristiano Ronaldo cult of personality. You think that being better at pure finishing and at header ability actually adds decisive statistical value when Real Madrid's midfield service was consistently elite enough that Ronaldo repeatedly doing nothing in Semi Finals and Finals was still not enough to preclude Real Madrid from advancing to the next stage of the competition; compare that to Ronaldo being very good with Juventus, only to see how Juventus's midfield service is not good enough to actually generate more goals than the opponent in front of them.

Ronaldo scores literally of Juventus goals, but Juventus actually ends up scoring less goals than when they did not have Ronaldo on the team... What exactly is the statistical benefit of this? Ajax and Olympique Lyon scored more goals... Ronaldo is not adding sufficient goals to justify the deficit of players not named Ronaldo. This is obvious to the naked eye. The statistics consistently confirm the obvious.

Again, this is why Ronaldo's post-2015 poacher role is traditionally regarded as an inferior role; it's because good quality midfield service consistently can make or break Ronaldo's chances in the Champions League, World Cup, Euro, or La Liga; at the same time that many other generational greats can easily replicate Ronaldo's impact precisely because Real Madrid's midfield service was great in terms of facilitating goal scoring form.

Answer me this: Why is Juventus getting worse results with Ronaldo?

No Coppa Italia with Ronaldo.

Less goals with Ronaldo.

Juventus eliminated by inferior clubs in the Champions League, with Ronaldo.

Why is this happening? Ronaldo according to you is at least two times better than Benzema, so why is Ronaldo not single-handedly propelling Juventus into Champions League Finals or Semi Finals?

 

Carlito, I actually consider you a friend more than a foe to be honest with you, but my friend, how is it possible that after so many years you cannot even begin to see the obvious error of your fundamental argument??



Cristiano Ronaldo 2015/16 La Liga Competitive Margin Games:

14 goal involvement / 23 games

11 open play + 3 assists + 1 penalty / 23 games

3 header goals

0.60 goal involvement per game



Benzema 2015/16 La Liga Competitive Margin Games:

11 goal involvement / 15 games

9 open play + 2 assists / 15 games

2 header goals

0.73 goal involvement per game



Benzema is actually better in terms of conversion rate in competitive margin games; better header conversion rate; better open play goal conversion rate; better assist conversion rate; etc. Where is the statistical evidence for Cristiano Ronaldo 2015/16 being better than Benzema?

In fact, in La Liga 2016/17 Real Madrid won all 9 games without Ronaldo; 27 out of 27 points in games without Ronaldo, and Morata (let alone Benzema) literally converted goals at the same rate as Ronaldo 2016/17. Quite simply, your Ronaldo propaganda is not grounded in reality. You are acting as though Ronaldo uniquely is the catalyst behind Real Madrid's record number of blow out win games, when in reality it obviously is Real Madrid's vast superiority as a collective team that is responsible for the record number of blow out win games; this is why Real Madrid 2009/10 and Real Madrid 2016/17 both had excellent results in games that Ronaldo did not played.



Cristiano Ronaldo 2015/16 La Liga Blow Out Win Games:

25 goal involvement / 13 games

17 open play + 7 assists + 1 penalty + 1 free kick / 13 games

3 header goals

1.92 goal involvement per game



Benzema 2015/16 La Liga Blow Out Win Games:

21 goal involvement / 10 games

15 open play + 6 assists / 10 games

3 header goals

2.1 goal involvement per game



Again Benzema is literally better in terms of goal involvement per game. Same quantity of header goals. Better ratio of assists per game. Equal ratio of open play goals per game. Your argument is pure fiction, I'm sorry to inform you. Benzema played 25 games, but was better in terms of goal involvement per game. On the other hand, Ronaldo played 36 games, but was inferior in terms of goal involvement per game. This has never happened to Lionel Messi in La Liga; because Messi obviously and comprehensively is vastly superior to Ronaldo in terms of La Liga impact.

Again this demonstrates that header ability is heavily reliant on the quality of the service, which is why Benzema, Gareth Bale, and Cristiano Ronaldo, all have nearly identical header goal conversion rates in La Liga. This would never happen with ball retention ability or dribbling ability; David Beckham would never be anywhere near as great as Zinedine Zidane in terms of ball retention or dribbling ability; there is nothing that better quality of service can do to artificially inflate David Beckham's inherently limited ability in terms of ball retention and dribbling.

But by all means, do continue entertaining the absurd idea that Ronaldo's greatness in a pointless 7-1 blow out win, somehow demonstrates how superior Ronaldo is to Benzema, even when Benzema literally scores goal involvement at a better rate than Ronaldo. Your level of denial is Orwellian in nature i.e. you literally not only deny reality, but you then double-down that Ronaldo delivering literally worse statistical returns is much better than Benzema; not only better than Benzema; much better than Benzema; even when Benzema is in fact delivering better statistical results per game.



Real Madrid 2015/16 La Liga Service Distribution Blow Out Win Games:

9 game vs. Celta Vigo / Sergio Ramos 1 assist for Ronaldo
9 game vs. Celta Vigo / Isco 1 assist for Ronaldo
9 game vs. Celta Vigo / Jese 1 assist for Ronaldo
9 game vs. Celta Vigo / Casemiro 1 assist for Gareth Bale



Ronaldo's great performance in a 7-1 easy blow out win versus 6th place Celta Vigo.... Real Madrid created 4 assists for Ronaldo, but only 1 assist for Gareth Bale; Benzema did not played this game.

At any rate, Ronaldo's 10 out of 10 performance versus Celta Vigo is an easy game; a meaningless and pointless performance by Ronaldo; statistical farming by Ronaldo; Celta Vigo being 6th place does not change the fact that Real Madrid is superior in a way that was unprecedented at the time; Real Madrid won 7-1 versus Celta Vigo.

Real Madrid without Ronaldo was always going to win versus a vastly inferior Celta Vigo; with Ronaldo it was a 7-1 win; without Ronaldo it probably would have been a 4-1 win; the end result is a routine easy win with or without Ronaldo. Why is this fact so uniquely difficult to understand or opposite to understand with regards to your understanding of this sport??



Real Madrid 2015/16 La Liga Service Distribution Blow Out Win Games:

2 game vs. Espanyol / Luka Modric 1 assist for Ronaldo
2 game vs. Espanyol / Gareth Bale 2 assists for Ronaldo
2 game vs. Espanyol / Lucas Vazquez 1 assist for Ronaldo
2 game vs. Espanyol / Gareth Bale 1 penalty assist for Ronaldo
2 game vs. Espanyol / Ronaldo 1 assist for Benzema



More of the same statistical farming in easy blow out wins: 4 assists for Ronaldo, and only 1 assist for Benzema; same exact service distribution as the other blow out win game where Ronaldo received 4 assists, but then Gareth Bale received 1 assist. Ronaldo scores all goals, and the only goal not scored by Ronaldo is assisted by Ronaldo; this is what statistical farming literally is. This is not a random statistical pattern; this is deliberate statistical farming; this tactical phenomenon did not existed at any point before the Messi Ronaldo Era.

At any rate, Ronaldo scored 7 goals in 2 games, but Benzema only scored 1 goal in the same 2 games; and Benzema still somehow comes out of this with better goal involvement per game across the board, in blow out win games and in competitive margin games, which would never happen if Ronaldo was a much better passer capable of consistently generating assists out of virtually nothing, which is categorically not the case with Ronaldo.



"There is no so called poacher in the history of football who could play defence splitting pass like Cristiano Ronaldo."



Ronaldo's passing ability never, not even one time in his 9 years in La Liga, it never consistently translated into superior statistics in competitive margin games in La Liga; why did the same thing happened for 9 consecutive years??

At any rate, Ronaldo's ability to create assists in competitive margin games is actually inferior to Benzema's, let alone unique in the history of poacher type players. I mean, I'm sorry my friend, but your Cristiano Ronaldo arguments are simply not grounded in reality. Zlatan Ibrahimovic in the same era was better in terms of assist conversion rate in competitive margin games. All the while, Benzema in the same era was also better in terms of assist conversion rate in competitive margin games.

Honestly, I would genuinely like to take you seriously, but I cannot in good conscience take you seriously when you cannot even be honest about easily demonstrable facts; I mean, what exactly is the point of taking you seriously when you cannot even at least concede the easily demonstrable fact that Ronaldo is not at all consistent nor special in terms of passing ability nor in terms of playmaking ability?



Luis Figo 1999/00 La Liga Competitive Margin Games:

12 goal involvement / 25 games

6 open play goals + 6 assists / 25 games

Barcelona 37 goals

Barcelona 64 points

Figo involved in 32.43% of Barcelona's goals.



Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08 Premier League Competitive Margin Games:

15 goal involvement / 23 games

12 open play goals + 1 assist + 3 penalty goals + 2 free kick goals / 23 games

Manchester United 34 goals

Manchester United 87 points

Ronaldo involved in 44.12% of Manchester United's goals.



Manchester United 2007/08 Premier League Competitive Margin Games Service Distribution:

10 assists for Ronaldo //////////// 1 assist by Ronaldo

3 assists for Rooney /////////////// 4 assists by Rooney

4 assists for Tevez //////////////// 5 assists by Tevez

10 out of 17 assists for Ronaldo

Ronaldo received 58.82% of the available service



Surely this also is yet another random statistical pattern that I have conveniently found... Surely this is not demonstrable evidence of the fact that Ronaldo throughout his career received an excessive amount of the available or generated service; even in his winger form, Ronaldo was still getting more service than Rooney and Tevez combined...

More of the same exact statistical formula that Ronaldo brought with himself to Real Madrid: Wayne Rooney and Carlos Tevez combined received 7 assists, which is literally less than the 10 assists that Ronaldo the so called "winger" received... Since when do wingers like Luis Figo receive a greater percentage of assists than Wayne Rooney and Carlos Tevez combined??

And not only does Ronaldo literally receives a greater percentage of assists than Rooney and Tevez combined, but both Rooney and Tevez created more assists than they received; Rooney created 4 assists, but then Rooney received 3 assists; Tevez created 5 assists, but then Tevez received 4 assists; Ronaldo created 1 assist, but then Ronaldo somehow received 10 assists.

At any rate, Ronaldo received 10 times more assist than he created... Wingers are supposed to create assists at a far greater rate than they receive assists, but so called "winger" Ronaldo only creates 1 assist after 23 games; why does Cristiano Ronaldo consistently registers ordinary assists in competitive margin games? Why would a great passer repeatedly deliver average results precisely in the games that decide league titles?

With players like Zinedine Zidane or Carlos Valderrama, they both consistently were better in competitive margin games, versus blow out win games. But with Cristiano Ronaldo, I have to entertain this bizarre idea that he is a great passer, even when the vast majority of his assists are exclusively farmed in pointless blow out win games... "Random statistical patterns."