Cristiano Ronaldo - Messi vs. Zinedine Zidane - Ronaldo Luis ; Is Modern Football Overrated ??

Zidane is difficult to compare to the other three because he's not a forward. And R9 is difficult to compare because he had such a short peak and because of it I have to rank him last on a GOAT list. But anyways for me:

All-Time

Messi > CR > Zidane > R9

Peak

Messi > R9 > CR > Zidane

 

But isn't that necessary true of any team in the middle of their "good cycles"? They wouldn't be in the middle of their good cycles if they were conceding goals to other elite teams, and getting knocked out. Almost by definition, they had to have been able to keep the best players of other teams quiet.

This is true, not just of Ronaldo, but of Messi as well.

In 2010, flanked by their UCL victories in 2009 and 2011, so quite clearly in the middle of Barcelona's middle good cycles, Messi was scoreless against Inter Milan in 180 minutes. This didn't mean Messi and co. were bad (they were still clearly the best team in the world) but that was Inter's year. Things came together for them. Inter was not in the middle of a good cycle either. They were at the end, the peak, the crescendo of one.

Even in years where they faced team who were not in the middle of a good cycle, they could struggle.

In 2012, at the peak of his scoring numbers, Messi couldn't score against Chelsea and was knocked out. Chelsea in 2012 was definitely not in the middle of a good cycle.

At the same time, Messi didn't score in the 2015 final against Juventus, but one could easily argue that he was MotM. While Ronaldo did score against Juventus in 2017.

At the end of the day, my biggest problem with this whole debate is that it is much much too individually focused. I think both Ronaldo and Messi get too much credit for their team success, and also too much of the blame when their teams don't win.

 

Club
Lionel Messi
Cristiano
Zinedine zidane=Ronaldo de lima

International
Zinedine zidane
Ronaldo 9
Cristiano=Messi

Peak
Messi
Cristiano
Ronaldo 9
Zidane

Longevity
Messi=Cristiano
Zinedine zidane
Ronaldo 9

Iconic status
Lionel Messi
Cristiano=R9
Zidane


Zidane won a single ballon dor
And he was never the highest rated player by DBS calico in any season he played for juventus or real Madrid

He doesn't have a defined peak where he is a ruler for even 1 season

Pre world cup final 1998 Zidane was not even a ballon dor contender
That is his only ballon dor

For a defined and dominant peak
C.Ronaldo was ESM 7 times in 2007/08

8 times in 2011/12

Someone/anyone will have to tell me which season it is Zidane had for juventus or real Madrid that is comparable to Cristiano 07/08

A season par excellence zidane had from matchday 1 till matchday 38

Not one analyst worth his salt would rank zidane as a greater historic player as Cristiano
Not 1



Not even in a parallel universe where zidane did not headbutt materezzi,scored the winner vs buffon and leaves fabio cannavaro on his ass via a stepover
The gulf at club level is big
Just too big

Despite the fact i have never agreed with leadleader and never will agree with him

before this potentially gets 'nasty' id just like to say i respect him for the way he formulates his ideas
He is a real student of the game who always brings added value to debates he engages in and/or intiaties

Welcome back

 

Despite the injuries of R9

zidane only had one more world class season than R9
And that 1 extra season is not enough to move the needle

1997/98
1999/00
2000/01
2001/02
2002/03
Are WC for Zidane

Zidane got off to a very slow/bad start in 1996/97(this is confirmed through various match reports)

Finished 31st place in the ballon dor for 1995/96


R9 was world class in 4 seasons
1994/95
1996/97
1997/98
2002/03

In at least 2 of those seasons he was at a real elite level
A level where he separated himself from his peers
I dispute zidane ever did this even once


2003-2006 Zidane
Was not much greater(if at all)than R9 during the exact same time period

Pele said in 2006 Zidane was the best player for the last 10 years and this became ingrained in the psyche of many fans
Its a myth

 

What make Zidane international career more impressive than Ronaldo's?

 

For me it’s gonna be
1)Messi
2)R9
3)Zidane
4)CR7
I believe number 2 and number 3 are interchangeable too, but R9 would’ve had a way better career if it weren’t for those injuries and metabolism issues.

 

And interesting fact according to the German site GoalImpact R9 (not bumped by his positive time at Brazil) reached higher peak than Cristiano Ronaldo in a time where the players (and teams) had lower GI.







GoalImpact is a tool used by some coaches like Tuchel to improve his teams I heard.

I'm going with

Peak
Messi
R9
Cristiano
Zidane

Longevity
Messi
Cristiano
Zidane
.
R9

Data against more or less equal teams according to Elo rating for Ronaldo Nazario

17 matches, 10 goals vs TOP National Teams (Germany, England, France, Italy, Argentina, Spain) carrer.

According ClubElo (clubs ranked at the end of each season) these are the opponents with +- 150 points difference for R9s teams.

Club Matches

1996/1997
Atlético de Madrid
Betis
Depor
Real Madrid
Fiorentina
PSG

13 matches against these teams, 13 goals scored.

1997/1998
Roma
Fiorentina
Parma
Lazio
Udinese
Juventus

11 matches against these teams, 8 goals scored.

I made for the first three Real Madrid seasons as well.

2002/2003
Athletic Bilbao
Bilbao
Celta
Valencia
Real Sociedad
Depor
Barcelona
Roma
Dortmund
Milan
United
Juventus

19 matches against theses teams, 15 goals scored.


2003-2004 and 2004-2005 there are a lot of teams who classify so, I did only for the 1800+ Elo points team (instead of 150 difference)

1800+ teams

2003-2004
Bilbao
Sevilla
Depor
Barcelona
Valencia
Porto
Bayern
Monaco

14 matches against theses teams, 9 goals scored.


2004-2005
Vilarreal
Barcelona
Juventus

6 matches against these teams, 2 goals scored.


These are the seasons where R9 was the top Goal contributor (in league) per 90 minutes (non-PK goals + assists per 90) or top 5 (1997/1998).

63 matches, 47 goals, 13 assists. Assists from Transfermarkt

80 matches, 57 goals, 15 assists vs TOP teams (or decent, strong teams and national teams) = 0.90.

Real Madrid Cristiano Ronaldo vs 09-18 Barcelona Messi

Based on ELO ratings (Club Elo)
Just matches with 150 or less points of difference between the teams or vs 1900+ points sides (strong teams).

Cristiano Ronaldo






Messi






Overall:
Cristiano Ronaldo 67 Goals + 8 assists in 83 Matches = 0.90
Messi 44 Goals + 15 Assists in 72 Matches = 0.82

Data from Transfermarkt.

Barcelona and Real Madrid 2009-2018 have ~60 more Elo points of difference than their opponents something that Inter, Real Madrid or Barcelona of R9s certainly hadn't and I included for R9 the matches vs TOP National teams which could lower the average of Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo as well (in fact for Argentina in competitive matches or vs big opponents Messi start to look like Maradona for Argentina without his high 1986 peak).

But here I am thinking Messi was the most involved guy on the pitch, so he very probably reached higher peak. (against worthy - or somewhat comparable - opponents of course).

 

This is some insane shit Messi did last night lol

 

Not sure how you can already judge Messi superior to Cristiano on that front, when we have no idea what Messi will be like at 35, but we know for a fact that Cristiano remains one of the best players in the world at that age.

 

We're talking thin margins here

Zidane never had such an abysmal performance as R9 vs France 98
And he directly outclassed R9 in both encounters( in 98 and 06)

The margins are thin

Ive covered this also
World cup qualification matches/continental qualification matter

Which is why Messi/Ronaldo are in the mix

At international Cristiano reached a real devastating level
Sweden 13
Holland 12
Russia 04
These are 3 marquee matches i can recall

2 of them were must win/clutch encounters where he brought his best form
He brought his peak all round form in must win matches

If tropiero has in mind any similar international performances by R9 id like him to share them

If i recall correctly Messi is the top provider/assister in copa America history
By virtue of this fact alone he would make a copa America all star team

There comes a point where longevity is a real factor that should be taken into consideration

Messi and Ronaldo have been internationals since 18 years
Played and captained in multiple tournaments
Featured in multiple team of the tournaments
There is a body of work

I give it to zidane (the edge) at intl level because his presence in the KO rounds of 2006

He had a similar aura here that maradona had in 86 (without exactly replicating his performances)

At club level
Zidane is nowhere near to Cristiano
A 22 year old Cristiano already reached a higher plateau
He sustained it and even improved on it
The gulf is just way too big here(i reiterate once more)

Cristiano was already a 2 time league MVP in the best league in the world at 23 years old
Theres no comparison

 

But Messi can’t? Messi doesn’t need to keep scoring shit ton of goals to remain one of the best player at 35 considering he’s a playmaker too and I doubt that quality of his will decline. Plus, I feel he’s more refined as a player than he was before. I haven’t seen any decline in him besides the number of goals he scored and pace. Ronaldo have clearly declined and is not the same player he was due to those two injuries he suffered.

 

Messi is arguably showing his best version nowadays (at least for Barcelona). Cristiano is clearly a step below he was between 2007-2014.
We can go and talk about Messi being a superior teenager as well, if longevity at high level we are talking about.

 

You have no idea what kind of level Messi will be performing at 35 years old

Do you have a crystal ball or maybe you are tarrot card reader!!!
Gosh people seek arguments where there are none

 

What kind of longevity do you speak of

As a world class professional
Or as a elite world class professional

What is longevity to you

Cristiano is a top 5 outfield player in the world with Messi,lewandowski,Kevin de bruyne and Neymar Jr
At 35 years old
He's never dropped outside the top 5 since 2007

Difference is between 2007-2014 he was top 2
But hes still in the mix

You can't apply different standards of longevity to different players

Why/how does Zidane have markedly more longevity than ronaldo nazario
Zidane has 5 world class seasons
Ronaldo nazario has 4

And please remember if Zidane retired in 1996 at 24 years old
He would be no one
No one would remember him
R9,Messi,Cristiano already built a lasting legacy at that age as the main protagonists behind a footballing dynasty(messi/cris at club and R9 at international)

Zidane was a obscure player at borduex with 1 UEFA cup and failure at Euro 96

Zidane never had the trajectory of a real all timer

There is no real all timer who became world class at 25 years old
It doesn't exist

R9 had comparable longevity to zidane
Even with the injuries

Zidane had 6 world class years
1997
1998
2000
2001
2002
2003

In a playing career stretching from 1989-2006

R9 had 5 world class calender years
1996
1997
1998
2002
2003
In a playing career stretching from 1993-2011
2 of those was on the operating table and recovery

And if were being perfectly frank
R9 in 1999 on his game and before the injury wasn't operating at much lesser level than he had been during 1996-1998

R9 in 1998/99 is still a higher level than zidane 2004-2006

 

The point is, you don't know. No one does.

Nobody is saying that that Messi can't end up having superior longevity.

At this moment, right now, it's hard to argue that Messi has superior longevity when Cristiano is two years older and has played about 100 more games.

Messi could win the UCL this year and retire, while Cristiano keeps going till he's 40. Or the reverse is true where Cristiano retires, and Messi goes on till he's 40. We just don't know.

What we do know is that right now, in this very moment, Cristianho has more years and games at the top level than Messi, courtesy of his age.

 

I'll stick to just R9 vs Zidane for now.

I guess Zidane never had a performance as poor as R9 vs France in 1998, but only because he's never been asked to play against the tournament's best defense while he's sick.

It is not like Zidane didn't have low lights. He was sent off in WC 1998, but fortunately his team was good enough to beat Paraguay 1-0 without him in the R16. If they weren't, then it would be arguable that Zidane cost his team the World Cup by being irresponsible.

Just like he ruined his team's chance in the 2006 final. Why is that not considered a very low light? R9 has never put his team in such a position during such an important game.

Despite winning the final, Zidane wasn't even voted into the top 3 player of the World Cup, while R9 of course won the Golden Ball.

You also won't hear anyone making a case of 2006 Ronaldo, who was well past his prime by then. If Zidane gets points for doing so well late in his career, shouldn't Ronaldo get points for doing so well earlier in his career as well? Such as his MVP performance at the 1997 Copa America?

I also question how impressive Zidane's World Cup 2006 KO was. He was only MotM against Brazil. In the 3-1 victory against Spain, it was Vieira, and in the 1-0 victory over Portugal, it was Thuram. What exactly made it so special that he comes out on top over Ronaldo?

If you're going to give weight to qualifications, why not give weight to the World Cup group stage as well? Here, Zidane wasn't voted as MotM once. France could've really used him stepping up and taking control, as they came real close to getting knocked out.

 

Longevity is a factor on both sides of their prime. Cristiano may well end up being a better old player (33+ years old) but Messi was the better player as a youngster. Cristiano entered his prime at age 23, Messi at age 21. That also counts for longevity. I consider them even in that regard.

 

This is despite the fact R9 was not the top scorer
Was not the top assister
And really was not a remarkable dribbler in WC 98


R9 scored 3 open play goals in WC 98 to Zidanes 2

3 open play goals and your playmaker is rivaldo ,your left back is Roberto Carlos and your right back is cafu

The real MVP of that tournament was David suker

 

CR was 21 when he entered his prime

At 21 years old CR had the highest DBS calico rating in Europe's top 5 leagues
http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-risultatiMediaVoto.php

Was MVP in the best and most defensive league in Europe
The premier league 2006/07 averaged 2.45 goals per match
Historic lows
Cristiano had 17 goals+15 assists in the league playing as a midfielder
as per transfermarket

Was also champions league team of the season and 2nd place ballon dor

The peak started in October 2006 and ended in December 2014
That's 8 uninterrupted years as a undisputed top 2 player in the world

After that ronaldo ranged anywhere from 1st(end of 16/17) to 5th or 6th(his time at juventus)

 

R9 scored 3 non-PK Goals but he actually won the PK he scored, so 4 goals. He also had 3 assists, not sure if someone had more, but still 3 is the figure.

Suker had 1 PK goal too (not won by himself, but by Asanovic) and 0 assists? 5 non-PK goals in 7 matches.

Anyway, 4 Goals + 3 assists until the final is a good mark.

2 assists to Bebeto and Rivaldo here.



4:09 assist to Bebeto here

 

Well Messi finished 3rd in Ballon D'Or and 2nd in FIFA Best Player Award in 2007 when he was 19/20 years old so whichever criteria you use Messi entered his prime earlier.

 

I don’t recall Ronaldo being touted as the world’s best teenage player in his era, whereas Messi was touted as one of the best player in the world since he was a teenager. Ronaldo hit his peak when he bulked up(2006-07 season). Messi was freakishly great since 2005-06 season tbh, even though some of his abilities weren’t as refined. But, Messi wasn’t marketable like Ronaldo was until Pep’s Barca era. Globally speaking, people barely knew who Messi was until 2008-09 season.

 

Well that small little technicality changes the complexion of your argument

Ronaldo emerged as a world class player the exact same year messi was
Maybe even a few months earlier because Messi kicked into first gear in 2007(calendar year)not 2006

Before 2007
Messi was not a world class player
He was a world class talent

A world class player is one of the very best performers in his position at any given time(preferably a season to discern whether it is his real level or a just blue patch)

There is no such a thing as being world class for your age category
You are either world class or not

Messi's production pre 2007 was not at the level of a world class player
Simple as