Cristiano Ronaldo Best Season?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tropeiro, May 21, 2019.

?

Ronaldo's best season

  1. 2007/2008

    7 vote(s)
    19.4%
  2. 2011/2012

    15 vote(s)
    41.7%
  3. 2013/2014

    9 vote(s)
    25.0%
  4. other

    5 vote(s)
    13.9%
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    His dribbling stats for 2006/07 on Pes database are insane

    His combination of dribbling accuracy,dribbling speed,directness and on the ball strength (a underrated aspect)was truly something special to behold
     
  2. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If there's a joke here mate, it might just be your demonstrable incapacity to understand the irony that is your statistical ignorance as you attempt to inflate Ronaldo 2011/12...

    Messi 2011/12

    16 open play goal involvement / 17 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 12 open play goals + 4 assists + 1 penalty kick + 1 free kicks / Real Madrid won La Liga even though Messi was better than Ronaldo was against the top 6 sides / 33 goals by Barcelona.

    Suarez 2015/16

    15 open play goal involvement / 10 open play goals + 5 assists + 1 penalty kicks / 1 assists for Messi / 28 goals by Barcelona.

    Ronaldo 2011/12

    12 open play goal involvement / 13 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 8 open play goals + 4 assists + 1 free kicks + 4 penalty kicks / 23 goals by Real Madrid.

    Ronaldo 2016/17

    5 open play goal involvement / 6 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 4 open play goals + 1 assists + 2 penalty kicks + 1 free kicks / 22 goals by Real Madrid.

    Real Madrid scored 23 goals with Ronaldo in alleged GOAT tier more; Real Madrid scored 22 goals with Ronaldo in his worst form ever in La Liga... The goals are virtually identical, and yet Ronaldo's proportional involvement is light years apart... which conclusively demonstrates just how utterly pointless it is to use proportional involvement as an argument.

    So you think that when Ronaldo is involved in a higher proportion of goals, that said proportional achievement is not evidence of how Real Madrid was playing for Ronaldo at the expense of reducing Benzema's numbers, therefore making Ronaldo's proportional involvement greater than any player to have ever played the game... because that is precisely what will happen when 90% of the overall service is aimed exclusively at Cristiano Ronaldo?

    On the other hand, when Messi does not systematically reduce Suarez's involvement into a Benzema-ish donkey single digit player, then obviously Barcelona will score more goals, because Messi scores goals in the same range as Ronaldo, at the same time that Messi also allows for Suarez to score goals in the same range as Ronaldo...

    In other words: if Barcelona has 2 different players who score in the same range as Cristiano Ronaldo, or if Barcelona has 1 player who scores in the same range as Cristiano Ronaldo (yet without greatly reducing the statistics of other players), then it is inevitable that Barcelona is going to score more goals than Real Madrid...

    Which again, is obviously why Messi 2011/12 was involved in more goals than Ronaldo, at the same time that Messi 2011/12 was less proportionally involved in the goals scored by Barcelona; because Messi literally scored more goals than Ronaldo, literally scored equal assists to Ronaldo, but unlike Ronaldo, Messi was not greatly reducing the statistical role of players not Messi, which is largely what allowed Barcelona to score more goals against the top 6 sides in La Liga.

    Your bizarre and misguided understanding of statistics is the only reason why you would even try to think of "proportional involvement" as an inherently good thing, when the reality is that nobody will ever match Ronaldo in that area, simply because no other player in the history of the game had a big enough narcissistic ego to impose themselves in such a way upon the lesser peasants, to the detriment of players like Benzema, to the detriment of the entire team actually; 2 La Liga titles after 9 years is nothing short of failure for a club like Real Madrid.

    Real Madrid 2011/12 with the star quality that they had across all the positions, were well capable of winning La Liga without Ronaldo overwhelmingly being the most proportionally involved player of all time... In fact, Ronaldo 2011/12 in alleged GOAT tier mode was not even great enough for Real Madrid to score more goals against the top 6 sides, than Real Madrid 2016/17 scored against the top 6 sides... The truth is that Real Madrid 2016/17 won La Liga, and Ronaldo not only delivered by far his worst campaign in La Liga, but actually Ronaldo was probably about as proportionally involved as Barcelona's Jordi Alba.

    Football is a team sport and proportional involvement is a largely pointless statistic... which is, honestly, especially true when players like Cristiano Ronaldo hold a demonstrable monopoly over the service of the team, ergo why Dybala cannot do much when all the service is aimed at Ronaldo, and why Benzema could not do much when all the service was aimed at Ronaldo, and why Ronaldo is easily the greatest player of all time if you think that proportional involvement is inherently a good thing.

    Ronaldo 2011/12

    12 open play goal involvement / 13 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 8 open play goals + 4 assists + 1 free kicks + 4 penalty kicks / 23 goals by Real Madrid.

    Ronaldo 2011/12 scored 4 penalty kicks against the top 6 clubs... that is, Ronaldo scored 8 open play goals against the top 6 clubs, and 4 penalty kicks, which means that his penalty kicks alone account for almost 50% of the goals that he scored against top 6 sides...

    Real Madrid could've and would've easily scored most if not all of those penalty kicks without Ronaldo, which is why Ronaldo scoring 4 penalty kicks has little to no impact on Real Madrid's total goal count; the fact that Ronaldo apparently didn't win a single one of his penalty kicks, further diminishes his overall impact on Real Madrid's total goal count.

    Barcelona 2008/09 won by 9 points.

    Real Madrid 2011/12 won by 9 points.


    Barcelona 2008/09 won La Liga by a difference of 9 points, which means that Real Madrid 2008/09 was good enough - without GOAT tier Ronaldo - to have been 9 points behind Barcelona. On the other hand, Real Madrid 2011/12 won La Liga by a difference of 9 points, which means that Barcelona 2011/12 was not good enough - even with the benefit of having GOAT tier Messi - to have cut the distance to anything less than the 9 points that separated them from Real Madrid.

    Barcelona 2010/11 won by 4 points.

    Real Madrid 2011/12 won by 9 points.


    Ronaldo 2010/11 was up against prime Xavi and Iniesta... Barcelona 2011/12 was better than Real Madrid was in terms of points scored against the top 6 clubs, which indicates that the big 9 pint difference was created on the basis of Barcelona's lack of form against the mid tier and/or lower tier clubs in La Liga; furthermore, Iniesta's absence and lack of form appears to be a telling factor in terms of Barcelona's lack of form against the mid tier and lower tier clubs in La Liga...

    * Iniesta did not played in the 2-3 defeat vs. Osasuna; 7 place finish in the league.

    * Iniesta did not played in the 0-1 defeat vs. Getafe; 11 place finish in the league.

    * Iniesta did not played in the 0-0 draw vs. Villarreal; 18 place finish in the league.

    * Iniesta did not played the 2-2 draw vs. Valencia; 3 place finish in the league.

    * Iniesta played the final 7 minutes (due to the lack of match fitness and general form related to Iniesta's season long struggle against injuries) of the 2-2 draw vs. Betis; 13 place finish in the league.

    * Iniesta played the final 10 minutes (again, due to injury related lack of form) of the 2-2 draw vs. Real Sociedad; 12 place finish in the league.

    Overall, Barcelona failed to win 14 out of 18 points, in other words, Barcelona won only 4 points out of 18 points coincidentally or not in the exact games where Iniesta either didn't played or barely played... Real Madrid won La Liga 2011/12 on the basis of a 9 point difference, which demonstrates how costly it was for Barcelona to have won only 4 out of 18 points in said games... Iniesta's underrated value in action I'd argue.

    Another such example of Iniesta's importance could perhaps be Barcelona's away game vs. Levante (the 6th best club in La Liga 2011/12); Barca was 0-1 behind in the game, Iniesta was subbed in at minute 54 with the game still at 0-1, and Barcelona won the game 2-1, both of Barcelona's goals were scored after Iniesta's introduction into the game. Furthermore, Iniesta was involved in all the games against the top 6 clubs, only missing the 2-2 draw vs. Valencia, which again points towards the same direction...

    On a similar note, Iniesta missed both games (due to injury) when Inter Milan 2009/10 eliminated Barcelona in the Champions League Semi Finals; Iniesta also famously scored the goal that eliminated Chelsea 2008/09 in the CL Semi Finals... all of which further helps substantiate the argument that Iniesta was a crucial element to Barcelona's success as a team at the time.

    With all of the above in mind, my general point is that Ronaldo 2010/11 - with virtually the same or better statistics than the following season - did not win La Liga 2010/11, more than anything else, simply because Barcelona 2010/11 was a better team than Barcelona 2011/12... Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta, each one of them was consistent throughout the La Liga 2010/11 campaign... compared to La Liga 2011/12, where Iniesta missed a lot of minutes against the lower tier and mid tier opponents, and where Barcelona missed a lot of points - having won only 4 out of 18 points - in the games that Iniesta didn't played in or barely played in.

    That is to say, Ronaldo 2011/12 didn't win La Liga significantly on the basis of his proportional involvement in terms of goals scored against the top 6 La Liga sides... but because Barcelona was coincidentally or not abysmal in the games that Iniesta didn't play. This also explains why Messi 2011/12 ends up 9 points short - in a sense his biggest failure ever in La Liga - despite having produced far better traditional statistics than he had in 2010/11. Football is a team sport.

    Ronaldo 2011/12

    12 open play goal involvement / 13 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 8 open play goals + 4 assists + 1 free kicks + 4 penalty kicks / 23 goals by Real Madrid.

    Ronaldo 2010/11

    12 open play goal involvement / 16 goal involvement not counting penalty kicks / 11 open play goals + 1 assists + 4 free kicks + 2 penalty kicks / 31 goals by Real Madrid.

    Ronaldo 2010/11 scored 3 additional open play goals, 3 additional free kicks, which in a sense yields an added 6 goals, which would take Real Madrid's 23 goal tally to 29 goals, which falls just 2 goals behind what Real Madrid scored in 2010/11... Of course this isn't a perfect methodology, but I think it gives you a fairly accurate indication of how Ronaldo helps his team more when he mostly just scores a lot of open play goals, as opposed to when he is overwhelmingly involved in every facet of the statistics.

    Similarly, the decline in 3 assists less by Ronaldo 2010/11 is not as significant (as open play goals and free kicks) in terms of how it affects Real Madrid's total goal count, because I for one do not rate Ronaldo as a great passer in the first place, so for a club like Real Madrid 2010/11, with amazing passers such as Xabi Alonso, Mesut Ozil... I mean, I'd argue that it's probably a good thing when Ronaldo delivers less assists, as that probably indicates that Ronaldo was less focused on assisting goals, which allows for more creative freedom for better passers; Ronaldo scored more open play goals, and Real Madrid also scored more goals as a whole... and it's probably not just sheer coincidence that such an outcome occurs when Ronaldo produces only 1 assist.

    This is perhaps not the best indication of it, but it is nonetheless a reasonably good demonstration of how open play goals are far more important than penalty kicks in terms of what it adds to Real Madrid's total goal count; the same is essentially also true about free kicks when the context is one where Ronaldo is the free kick taker in 2010/11 and again in 2011/12. Meanwhile, a decline of 3 less assists by Ronaldo when Real Madrid has Alonso and Ozil in their ranks, is not only not a significant negative, but it arguably possibly is better as it maximizes the creative freedom of players who are better passers than Ronaldo.

    It allows more freedom for the great passers to do a better job, at the same time that it also allows more freedom to Ronaldo to focus mostly on the task of scoring open play goals... on aggregate it makes for better team play, and as such, better results.

    At any rate, Ronaldo 2011/12 was nothing special in terms of his impact against the handful of top tier opponents that Real Madrid faced in the 2011/12 season. Barcelona scored more goals and conceded less goals in direct games vs. Real Madrid, in La Liga and the Copa del Rey. Meanwhile, Bayern Munich eliminated Real Madrid at the Champions League Semi Finals, and Ronaldo failed to score his penalty kick, on top of the fact that Ronaldo was not exactly great in the game itself.
     
  3. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #28 leadleader, May 31, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
    Honestly, the above encapsulates why you are either rather forgetful - short on attention span - or just a consummately disingenuous character who plays the forgetful game...

    Messi 2011/12 scored 9 goals in 3 games, but Messi 2011/12 also scored 50 goals in the league... which means that said 9 goals by Messi only account for 18 per cent of Messi's total.

    Ronaldo 2016/17 in Round 36 and Round 37 literally scored 33% of the goals that he had scored in the previous 26 games that he played... It doesn't take a genius to understand that scoring 33% of your overall goals in just Round 36 and Round 37, helped Ronaldo greatly in terms of masking the fact that Morata - a bench player who had played 11 games less than Ronaldo - that Morata had literally scored more open play goals than Ronaldo as late into the season as in Round 35 (out of 38 Rounds).

    How clueless and out of your mind do you need to be to even begin to entertain a comparison of Ronaldo 2016/17 versus Messi 2011/12??

    Do I think everyone is stupid and doesn't verify what I say?? I do not think that everyone is stupid, and I expect to be fact-checked and challenged... but at the same time, it takes a special type of stupid person to compare Messi 2011/12 with Ronaldo 2016/17, at the same time that you completely misrepresent my obvious argument...

    At any rate, you are completely missing the point... My point is not to rate the value of performances purely on the basis of stat-padding, instead, my point is to demonstrate just how easy it is to stat-pad when talented goal scorers such as Messi or Suarez play for super clubs such as Barcelona. That was Messi in just 3 games... Now try to imagine if Messi was as egocentric as Ronaldo, and Messi decided to do what he did in just said 3 games, but in 12 games? That is fundamentally what Ronaldo always did in La Liga, which is largely why he only won 2 out of 9 La Liga titles... despite having amazing stats on paper. My premise and narrative is extremely consistent, which is why it bothers me that you continue to play dumb or forgetful when you suddenly forget the entire complexion of my argument... whenever it suits you.

    The whole point of the statistics scored against the top 6 sides in La Liga, is to demonstrate how Ronaldo's statistical impact deflates, compared to Luis Suarez, for example. How is any of this lost on you?

    Most of the dishonesty that you repeatedly accuse me of is purely you completely missing the point... It seems like I need to explain the entire complexion of my argument to you, on a day to day basis, because if I fail to do that you end up accusing me of being dishonest... simply because you cannot even remember what my argument is to begin with. It's honestly exhausting and discouraging, and I will eventually run out of patience with you. I do not enjoy being insulted simply because you cannot follow a conversation.
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #29 carlito86, May 31, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
    3 of messis 19 goals vs top 6 la liga teams were completely redundant and useless
    Scored after real madrid had won the la liga title

    19 goals minus redundant stat padded hat trick vs 4th place malaga in round 37 of la liga

    Messi
    16 goals+4 assists out of 33 team goals

    Ronaldo
    13 goals+4 assists out 23 team goals
    Is suarez the only strike partner messi played with in his career?

    When messi averaged 55-70 goals per season between 2010-2012 non of his strike partners even scored 25 goals in a single season
    Not David villa
    Not Pedro
    Not alexis sanchez

    This was a team that was 100% catered to getting messi on the end of Barcelonas midfield dominance
    This is what having a stranglehold looks like
    David villa one of the best strikers in Europe at valencia was reduced to a redundant striker who barely scored 1 in 3
    Higuain and benzema enjoyed multiple 30+ goal seasons playing with ronaldo

    Do you know how many times karim benzema was on the end of GOAT level wing play by CR in 2011/12 and ********ed it up(like criminally)

    1:00-1:11
    5:32-5:42 (this is higuains miss but its just to show it wasn't a fluke or whatever)


    When missed chances almost become criminal offences


    1

    3:20-3:35

    2

    0:58-1:11

    3

    0:42-0:52

    To be continued

    PS
    still waiting for these performancs by luis figo 1999/000 showing a level of playmaking ronaldo "definitely" didn't reach
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    CONTINUED

    5:55-6:05

    When benzema was on the end of legendary level wing play by cristiano Ronaldo in 11/12 and remembered how to score


    1:29-1:34(great pass to benzema)

    6:35(assist)


    3:37 (assist)

    Could list more in fact many more but these examples from 1 season should suffice
    Not to mention the untold chances he created for players not named karim benzema
    Not withstanding the fact ronaldos dribbling threat in the final third and passing directly resulted in earned penalties for real madrid(you require examples I could also show you)
    Ronaldo was on pen duties because he was arguably the best penalty taker in the world
    You deny this and think everything meaningful he offers can easily be replicated by lesser players


    Ronaldo 11/12 offered GOAT level scoring and GOAT level wing play
    The two have never been combined by any player ever



     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Like I already said, I don't think Cristiano Ronaldo 2011/2012 was necessarily better than Ronaldo's version of 2007-2008, 2008-2009 (motivated version), 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 and the whoscored ratings in the big games agree with me here, in the 2008-2012 the ultimate peak of Cristiano Ronaldo he was combining arguably tier 1 level of striking/goalscoring and still offering the danger of dribbling (he wasn't a tier 1 here of course, but still a threat), creation of plays and helping to progress the ball to the final meters, often being the first option to pull the counterattack, he was arguably the creative hub of his team many times here.

    In the 2002-2003 to 2006-2007 he was probably dribbler and as a good in terms of progressing the ball and as good or almost as good in terms of creation chances, but his goalscoring instinct and scoring ability was really missing.

    In the 2012-2013 to now, he modulated the role of his game, offering less participation in building up his team moves (especially after 2013-2014) by delegating that responsibility to other players and at same time improving his off-ball movement and concentrating energy only on offering his contribution in the last third part of the field.

    In resume:
    2002-2003 to 2005-2006: Dynamic Playmaker
    2006-2007: Hybrid between a Dynamic Playmaker and a Complete Attacker
    2007/2008 to 2011-2012: Complete Attacker
    2012-2013 and 2013-2014: Hybrid between a Complete Attacker and a Elite Goalscorer.
    2014-2015 to 2018-2019: Elite Goalscorer (being 2018-2019 his most rounded version here)
     
  7. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What did he add to his game in 18-19 that he didn't have in 17-18? He felt like the complete goalscorer for me for a few years now, so I don't know what exactly he could have added to his toolkit :laugh:
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #33 carlito86, May 31, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
    Ok tropiero this is your opinion and valid
    the whoscored ratings "may agree with you"(or you agree with them?)
    However the Dbs calcio ratings disagree with you
    So yeah as I said there seems to be a valid difference of opinion



    Maybe it is possible CR during his peak was a year on year progression
    In the same way R9 1996/97 appeared to be him at his best but it wasn't
    His peak was a year later

    2011/12 was the culmination of everything
    And if we want to get even more specific it would be the 2012 calendar year.
    In this year was arguably his best ever international performance (vs Holland) and arguably his best ever club performance (vs Atletico Madrid)
    He scored against Barcelona in 6 consecutive matches that year which is an all time record

    Ronaldo 10/11 was unequivocally not a better passer or provider than 11/12
    This is where you always go wrong with placing too much emphasis on key passes per game, touches on the ball etc to the detriment of reviewing match footage.
    We have his matches in full which are readily available to be analysed


    You won't find playmaking or wing play in 10/11 comparable to 2011/12
    Neither will you find it in 2009/10 even though he appears to be a greater creator of chances (with more touches, more key passes)

    2012/13 real madrid was a team in a state of disarray
    Mourinho is an extremely divisive character who had pitted half if not more of the dressing room against Iker cassilas
    His us vs the world mentality made the relationship between Barcelona and real madrid players fractious when they were on international duty

    Benzema was arguably in the worst form of his real madrid career
    Within the context of this team environment ronaldo 12/13 was if not his best then definitely my personal favourite campaign
    A ruthlessly consistent player
    This is a guy who always scored
    Always even when he had a bad or anonymous game his name would somehow nearly always be on the scoresheet

    His involvement(touches on the ball) was probably less but his playmaking for a free roaming winger was phenomenal
    So he was producing much more quality playmaking with less touches on the ball
    288390.jpeg

    (With his playmaking,wing play and finishing from 2012/13)
     
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  9. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    He is indeed a complete goalscorer, but I feel he was particularly during this season at Juventus more participative than in his last seasons w/ Madrid, just a impression (no stats included :laugh:)
     
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  10. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    But that's probably just a tactical variation between Madrid and Juventus though. I don't think Ronaldo actually added anything to his own individual game in this year.

    Having said that, this is the first time in over a decade where I've watched less than 5 league games of Ronaldo (I think I only watched 3 games). I've pretty much only seen the UCL Ronaldo, not the league, this season.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  11. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    You didnt miss much. CR7 had a handful of good games early in the season but the team has been playing very boring and unattractive football. Not like the team in 14-15
     
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  12. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Peak: 2007-2008, 2009-2010, 2010-2011, 2011-2012
    Near Peak: 2006-2007, 2008-2009, 2012-2013, 2013-2014
    Real Peak 2007-2008 to 2011-2012.
     
  13. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    2009-2010 Ronaldo (his best individual season imo)

     
  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    It was either 2011/12 or 2012/13 for me. Probably the 1st.
    2013/14 was pretty weak in the league, but it was also Messi's worst season since 2008 by far for some reason....

    I have a summary of all his game ratings/opinions on his performances.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018

    If you want to share your opinions and works, feel free. I'm sure it will contribute to the topic.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #41 carlito86, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019

    A season overlooked and forgotten amongst the plethora of 50+ goal seasons
    Ryan giggs said this was his best Manchester United season much better than 2007/08
    I never understood this until you actually go through the match footage performance by performance and it is the only season where he was the complete player
    The defensive workrate,the dribbling runs, team play,technical ability and end product for a player who was essentially a wide midfielder,attacking midfielder and on occasion second striker

    Astonishingly a 21 year old for most of this season
    He was here a dribbling threat as devastating as prime R9(96-98) with the play making end product of Luis Figo(98-01)
    Which is why SAF said he was in this season at the same level as Diego Maradona and Pele
    It took a while to do the editing and includes footage from all the 57 games he played in 2006/07 for Manchester United and Portugal

    @Edhardy @Bavarian14 @ko242 @PDG1978 @Perú FC @Tropeiro @celito @leadleader @PuckVanHeel @babaorum @Danko @benficafan3 @artielange84 @greatstriker11 @Bruford @Gregoriak
    @schwuppe
    @poetgooner
     
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  17. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    My favourite CR7 season. I always thought it was nostalgia but that video highlights what a monster he was back then.
    His best season is probably somewhere in between this version and the first half of 2014/15
    A season where he married those two versions of himself.
     
  18. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yeah, Ronaldo 2006/07 might be my favorite in his "winger" years. The 2007/08 season is supposed to be a significant improvement, but I wouldn't be surprised if the improvement in terms of goals scored in 2007/08 was mostly due to one of Ferguson's savvy tactical alterations, therefore creating some addition tactical freedoms for Ronaldo; easier shots; easier shots from easier positions; more frequently per game.

    For example, season 2007/08 coincidentally or not falls right in to that era where strikers like Samuel Eto 2005 - 2009 were asked to do a lot of "wing playing" to add to his normal striker routine. David Villa 2010/11 was also asked to play almost like a winger at Barcelona, and yet nobody talks about Villa as a winger who scored a lot of goals. Nobody talks about Samuel Eto 2005/06 as a winger who scored a lot of goals. And yet, Ronaldo 2007/08 is talked about as a winger who scored a lot of goals...

    Which, to be fair, is not completely unreasonable - I mean, Ronaldo 2007/08 was obviously more of a traditional winger than David Villa 2010/11 was - but my point is that, at that point in time, Barcelona strikers were not only encouraged but forced - by the system - to play a lot on the wing, to the point that if you were to directly compare Villa 2010/11 versus Ronaldo 2007/08... I would not be surprised if the difference of "wing playing" is fractional at best in terms of wing activity, with the fundamental difference being that Ronaldo is a better faster dribbler than Villa.

    Again, because season 2007/08 falls right into that era where strikers were forced into expanding their skills; so that, for example, the difference between a striker like Samuel Eto 2005/06 and a winger - any winger ever - who scores a lot of goals, is nowhere near as big as most fans would think, because most fans do not understand just how much "wing work" was required of Samuel Eto 2005/06, David Villa 2010/11, etc.

    Ronaldo 2007/08 scored a lot of goals for a winger, but I genuinely always was and still remain unconvinced by the nature of his role as a "winger" in that season... and especially because the top tier strikers of that era were required and expected to do a lot of wing playing, which I think significantly minimized the fundamental differences between a striker and a winger. For example, if Samuel Eto had been a great wing dribbler, he could have reasonably been described as a winger who scores a lot of goals, because he did played a lot on the wings, his activity on the wings was high enough that if he had better dribbling ability he might've been described as some form of "false winger" or "a winger who scores a lot of goals" which is what I think, in essence, Ronaldo 2007/08 most probably was.

    I think Ronaldo 2006/07 - more of a traditional winger - and Ronaldo 2016/17 - more of a traditional goal scorer - are, as players, probably better than Ronaldo 2007/08. At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and I think that doing less but doing it better than anybody else, is better, helps the team better, than trying to be a winger who scores 30+ league goals per season, which I doubt is even possible for a traditional winger... I mean, if you defend less than most of the other players in your team (including the strikers), and if you also take more shots per game than most of the other players in your team (including the strikers), then how much of a traditional winger are you at that point?? If you don't need to track back, and you don't need to defend in the midfield, and you get to take more shots than the strikers... are you a Samuel Eto with dribbling ability, or are you a traditional winger who scores in the same range as Samuel Eto??

    If I had the time to do the work, that would be an interesting case study to either demonstrate or debunk.
     
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  19. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    #44 ko242, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    I really like what @leadleader said.
    To my point, If you had asked me this question 4 or 5+ years ago, I would say 06-07. But today, I say 07-08.

    My answer changing mostly because of how football have viewed the importance of goals over overall play with less goals. And less because of abstract thinking, or rather sophisticated thinking. Due to how I see coaches and agents at a high level view goals almost exclusively in judging attacking players, I have some what molded my thinking towards this view point. And I say that because, in Germany the easiest way to move up is not overall play but pure goals. If a coach sees a player score 15-20 at one level, that player is automatically given offers in a higher division, regardless of how the goals come. BUT if another player scores 10 goals, 20 assists, is a playmaker, and defends, he is far more likely to have to do a tryout. When in actuality, the player with less goals has a far higher ceiling than the other player. Coaches many times wont even consider an attacker who has half the goals of another looking purely at the statistical sheet. They will almost disregard everything else. And if coaches at the professional level are doing this in countries like England and Germany, it forces me to change my views. However, I wouldnt imagine that a country like Spain holds such views. And due to the importance they put in overall play as well as the result, I believe they may appreciate the 06/07 version over the 07/08version
     
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Easily could match Maradona 84/85.

    ______________________________________________________________________
    Btw, according Club Elo adjusted points:

    Manchester United 2006/2007: 1878 ==> 1939 (61 Points) ( http://clubelo.com/2007-07-01/ManUnited/Games/Latest
    Manchester United 2007/2008: 1939 ==> 2026 (87 Points) http://clubelo.com/2008-07-01/ManUnited/Games/Latest
    Real Madrid 2009/2010: 1853 ==> 1940 (87 Points) http://clubelo.com/2010-07-01/RealMadrid/Games/Latest
    Real Madrid 2010/2011: 1940 ==> 2000 (60 Points) http://clubelo.com/2011-07-01/RealMadrid/Games/Latest
    Real Madrid 2011/2012: 2000 ==> 2087 (87 Points) http://clubelo.com/2012-07-01/RealMadrid/Games/Latest

    It seems that in more or less the same circunstances 2009/2010, 2007/2008 and 2011/2012 were his best seasons if you had his peak between 2007-2012. But in some seasons there he played more like in 2011/2012 and in others he played less like 2009/2010, so you had to check his impact, the team playing with him and without him.

    The other great season is 2013/2014: 2019 ==> 2073 (54 Points)

    Funny that 2007/2008 United won more elo points than Barcelona 2008/2009 (1890 ==> 1973 = 83 Points). Ref: Barcelona with Ronaldinho at his peak (1884 ==> 1970, 86 Points) that's very high as well.

    Overall I like the 2007/2008 version of Ronaldo a bit more than the 2006/2007, and the aesthetic point of view of this season is underestimated as well. His DBS Calcio ratings are almost equal as well (6.98 x 7.09)

     
    carlito86 repped this.
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #46 carlito86, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Not enough full games of Maradona 84/85 are available
    His performance vs lazio was as a single performance better than anything Cristiano Ronaldo showed in 2006/07
    I can pretty much say that confidently

    Personally id be surprised if that lazio performance was representative of his actual level that season

    The is a marked difference between 07/08 vs 06/07
    One consistently turned up in big games and the other didn't

    He(CR 06/07) is better only in level of play/ability on the ball
    his 42 goals in 07/08 for a player in his position were a historic achievement
    He literally freekicked,headered,dribbled,tapind,flicked,crossed,pouted and dived his way into the annals of football history
    A machine from beginning till end of the season he was deciding games vs all comers

    From the recently retired Fernando torres who finished 3rd place in the 2008 ballon dor speaking about cristiano Ronaldo that season
    "No-one can rival him,' he told France Football. 'He is in a class of his own. I have never seen a comparable player.
    Nobody won what he did last season the premiership,champions league and golden boot
    For me he is the best player in the world. A machine. Incomparable.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...cks-incomparable-Ronaldo-scoop-FIFA-gong.html
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    A Reminder of What Cristiano Ronaldo Could in His PRIME
     
  23. Afghan-Juventus

    Afghan-Juventus Member+

    Oct 14, 2012
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Afghanistan
    Dont forget CR7's great performance vs Levante that season as well. Levante were quite good, nearly qualified for the CL and topped the table at one point.
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Plus–minus player ratings for soccer

    The paper presents plus–minus ratings for use in association football (soccer). We first describe the general plus–minus methodology as used in basketball and ice-hockey and then adapt it for use in soccer. The usual goal-differential plus–minus is considered before two new variations are proposed. For the first variation, we present a methodology to calculate an expected goals plus–minus rating. The second variation makes use of in-play probabilities of match outcome to evaluate an expected points plus–minus rating. We use the ratings to examine who are the best players in European football, and demonstrate how the players’ ratings evolve over time. Finally, we shed light on the debate regarding which is the strongest league. The model suggests the English Premier League is the strongest, with the German Bundesliga a close runner-up.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0377221719309373


    [​IMG]
     
  25. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Difference of athleticism

    0:10 and 2:00


    4 years after:

    0:05, 0:45


    I think Cristiano arrived in Spain in his physical peak, and had two seasons of physical peak in Spain 2009/2010 and 2010/2011. In 2011/2012 he was already not in his physical prime imo (or he reach it just in some matches), but still somewhat close.
    In the following seasons (2012-2013, 2013-2014 and 2014-2015) his fitness had already visibly declined, no longer being that beast he was in his last three seasons at United or in the first two at Madrid, still noticeably above average tho.
     

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