Alert: COPA DEL MONDO 2014: GROUP STAGE (1) ITALY VS ENGLAND, MANAUS, AMAZONAS, BRAZIL

Because his farts smell like roses and all that other stuff @vesuviani said, duh! Don't you pay attention?

Well that confirms it. Didn't you see the part in my response where I said you weren't entirely wrong? I've repeatedly agreed that the unmentionable player could have done a bit more and was possibly a bit timid. I'm pretty much, almost, but not completely, in agreement with you...just not everything...mostly limited to the parts where we mind read Prandelli's intentions.

Moving along, I just want to point out
Disappointment is subjective
That he didn't get a bit more bold with a ball over the top to Balotelli when he had chances, etc is objective

I'm doing my best to be objective here but I do appreciate your commentary explaining why Ugalio said what he said.

Sorry, got carried away with the italics.

How would the meaning of that sentence change if capable were replaced with instructed?

There you go selectively quoting again....and that's a football-italia article right?

Here are the parts left out....

"Marco Verratti is another player who could be left out against Costa Rica, as he is still recovering from a bout of flu.

He could be replaced by his Paris Saint-Germain teammate Thiago Motta.

Salvatore Sirigu, also of PSG, is almost certain to retain the gloves after Gigi Buffon’s ankle injury.

Italy probable: Sirigu; Abate, Bonucci, Chiellini, Darmian; De Rossi; Candreva, Thiago Motta, Pirlo, Marchisio; Balotelli"



So reading into that first bit...what if...and this just occurred to me after reading that, so it might be a bit crazy, but what if Prandelli subbed him out because he was still suffering from the flu in that game? Just saying, in addition to your reasoning that a tactical change was necessary, which I fully agree with.

Hey, I'm just saying...crazy as it might sound and to keep this thread alive a few more days before we talk about Costa Rica

but but but...108 of 117 passes and was directly involved in a goal.

I really don't think anyone was. Besides, using an attacker to man mark someone is really inefficient because it would take away from their other duties of getting forward. If someone were to have had that job, Milner was better suited to it, but really no one had that job.

Silly Sterling kept running at the defense too. Why did he just leave his man marking duties then?

BTW, is it your opinion that these were the two responsible, or did you read Hodgson making this strategy of his known somewhere? If they were, both did poor jobs of it. Sterling was more involved in running down our left side than concerned with Pirlo IMO.

There's no question they were paying more attention to him this time around. I think everyone agree's with that. The question is whether it worked well or not? Whether Pirlo found space or not, and what were the reasons he found that space to operate out of completing a high percentage of his passes.

I dunno bro, becoming only the 12th player in World Cup history to complete over 100 passes in a game, being directly involved in a goal, suggests to me that he was very influential and the strategy to mark him out of the game failed. That Italy's counter strategy was to rotate him in the midfield seemed to work well. Stats on passing, through balls, over the top balls etc, are nice but they don't mean everything, especially if *IF* the rotation strategy was just to get Pirlo into space,

"I look for space so I can get the ball and then start to conduct the play.
On the pitch I’m a wandering gypsy." - Pirlo

Sorry, but the rest seems also like a bit of nit picking.

I totally liked the 2-1 scoreline better

and that bolded part does seem to suggest you agree that England strategy to mark him out of the game failed.

Tactical change objective given the increase in defensive play
the rest subjective.

If one player has more defensive ability than another, of course the latter is "expendable". Even though the choice of words suggest more, in reality it's just putting someone in that can carry out a change of tactics better.

unless you have Prandelli on your speed dial like me and can call him up and ask him, like I can, and he actually answers you and tells you, like he would me if I wanted to bother him

Here's some fun reading on Pirlo, the "wandering gypsy"
http://blog.paddypower.com/2014/06/12/why-england-no-longer-have-anything-to-fear-from-andrea-pirlo/

The unmentionable player proves to be a great cure for my boredom after all

 

@Calcio Pauly - You do know that when Pirlo farts, well, it smells like shit!

 

Maybe, but it sounds like a trombone!

 

Summing it all up, for me, and all talking aside, I didn't really have nor ever expressed overblown expectations for our pint sized midfielder, so I can't say I was overly surprised or disappointed with his performance.

 

Or a firenze si dice trombare il trombaio!

 

I do not see anything wrong with expecting very good things from him. He certainly has the ability and energy. The question is when do we expect it and in what formation for me.

 

Expect it after you've seen him do it so if he doesn't do it you can say he did his job.

 

I have no idea what that means, or even the language you used. Forza Italia!

I do know that you seem to be taking this whole thing quite seriously.

 

I understand now. You are saying you will believe it when you see it. That way you can insult others the moment he misses a pass so that you can say you knew better. If that makes you feel better, I wish you well. I have not said that he played a remarkable match, but that he seemed to follow the "script." In the friendlies, he played VERY well, not because I say so, but because the football world seems to have taken notice. But then, you are smarter than all of them, and me, and everyone else.

 

The football world (i.e. the media) are a bunch of fools who have no clue about the game and are nothing more than Kool-Aid drinkers. The PSG player is a good one with a lot of potential and may some day become a star. He is not there yet. Winning the French league with that tilted roster is no accomplishment. He had his moments in the two friendlies but early on and disappeared as the match evolved. I have no problem with the kid and hope he does well. But it has become ridiculous how some around here have worshipped him for accomplishing nothing. Then again, I live in a country that elected someone who has accomplished nothing to the highest office in the land, twice. So I should not be surprised.

 

As you can see, we agree more than disagree. But some people seem to think it is a crazy idea to think that he will do very good things when given the chance in the proper formation. I do not know any better than you or Tottifan or anyone else whether this will happen or not.

 

LOL - For the time being it is still better than the government of Italy. My fear is that we are heading there.

 

What I'm saying is you should write the "script" before the match not after it. Unless you always want to be right in which case you write it after. I was half serious / half joking but obviously you took it the wrong way. I won't talk about this subject with you anymore unless it is to admit I am wrong which hopefully I will have to do.

Meh, I expressed my opinion, you expressed your opinion and others and so on.
Am I taking this whole thing too seriously? I take the time to read people's comments and consider what they are saying and then put the appropriate time into writing my responses. I actually think its a sign of respect towards the other person to do this.
When have I ever insulted a fellow ITALIAN poster in here or an ITALIAN player for that matter? If you read my posts about the boy from PSG I'm not saying he is a bad player, just that he still needs to prove himself to earn the accolades people want to give him.
So yes I'll believe it when I see it but not before.

 

It is all @Calcio Pauly's fault since he wanted to keep the issue alive.

 

Yeah well you won't mention his name because you want to stay in the game
So you're enjoying this as much as I am

 

Fair enough. Good night and may we win the Word Cup.

 

It doesn't bother me I enjoy a good argument as much as (maybe more) then the next guy.

Beats talking about Luca Toni.

 

Something we both definitely and completely agree on

 

He'll have to recover from the flu first.

That's his "job" for the moment.

 

In all seriousness I have learnt so much about football from reading other peoples posts and thinking about what to write myself since I joined this forum some four years ago.

 

That looks better.

Did we mention he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

The only disagreement in relation to the player in question is that you're saying he did what he needed to do as per Prandelli's instructions ie what you subjectively describe as his "job" whereas I am saying that he did what I expected him to do (ie how he plays at PSG) but we actually needed a little more from the person playing that position. In other words we disagree on what Prandelli was thinking/expecting from him, hard to prove either way.

Oh yes the flu. Didn't he have the flu b4 the England match. So he was okay to play against England with the flu but he's not ok to play with the flu against Costa Rica. Or is it a new flu?
Or was his flu performance against England not good enough so that he is flu unworthy against Costa Rica?
Next time you call Prandelli ask him to put Castellaci on the phone so you can ask.

You said it not me.

He was more effective in Euro 12 than in WC 2014. We had loads more chances in that game because he had more freedom. England were a lot more open defensively this time around however and so we were able to capitalise on our limited chances.

<http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/25/italy-0-0-england-pirlo-tactics/>

Pirlo

More important, however, was the freedom Andrea Pirlo enjoyed. At times England’s shape was good, bringing both strikers back into the midfield zone, remaining compact and getting both Danny Welbeck and Wayne Rooney goalside of Pirlo. When Welbeck was in a position to close down the Juventus midfielder, he generally did his job excellently.

Rooney was much sloppier, and after half an hour when Pirlo’s dominance had become clear, Joe Hart was clearly heard shouting at Rooney to pick him up. Hodgson clearly wanted Rooney to do this, because for much of the game Rooney could be seen half-heartedly jogging towards Pirlo.


Here's another "attacker" Modric doing that job effectively Italy v Croatia:

<http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06...-dominate-the-second-after-half-time-switch/>
The most important development in all this was Modric up against Pirlo. Italy’s creative fulcrum was now closed down quickly and no longer had such an influence on the game. He couldn’t hit those diagonals into the channels, and it also meant he wasn’t getting time on the ball and allowing Italy to push higher up the pitch


England 2 - Italy 1:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2014/06/15/world-cup-2014-group-stage-day-3/
It was ironic that Roy Hodgson decided not to use Wayne Rooney centrally (with Raheem Sterling in that position – he was England’s best player) because of fears about his defensive discipline against Andrea Pirlo. In the end, he would have been up against Daniele De Rossi anyway, and he actually had far more defensive responsibilities on the left.

Yes he was very influential because he is a great player. He also did a lot of running off the ball when we were in possession more than any other player (except Marchisio) on the field!
http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...71/eng_08_0614_eng-ita_ita_teamstatistics.pdf
http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...92/eng_08_0614_eng-ita_eng_teamstatistics.pdf
Usually he launches a lot more long balls but as you know this takes more time to execute than a short pass (need to look up more, bigger backlift etc) which he didn't have because of the marking, so no its not nitpicking.

We saw a different Pirlo, still influential but different. Candreva and Darmian were the creative heroes a mantle usually filled by Pirlo.

Just like you I don't need to contact Prandelli I can construct any reality I want to between my ears.

Have you got any other contentious viewpoints we can discuss?

 

so many walls of text so many walls of text

 

@Calcio Pauly is preparing a two-page response.

 

I can't wait to see that learning reflected in your posts.
Will it be anytime soon?

 

You think I'm going to make this easy for you?

lol

It's true, I was tired and had nothing to say...mostly cuz I didn't read it at that time

Yeah, but just a bit and maybe even less than that.

Are you a doctor? How certain are you that illnesses like the flu can't get worse, especially with dehydration?

If you say so. I still like the 2-1 scoreline better and think nitpicking 130 passes to 117 is really splitting hairs here isn't it? I mean, being directly responsible for a goal, almost scoring another one and proving that the strategy to nullify his influence wasn't really effective is good for me. Just good, you know, don't want to say more than good.

That's great an opinion piece, even if by a journalist generally more well respected than the average pundit but it still doesn't answer my question. Did Hodgson come out and confirm his tactics? That Rooney was the only one with this role? If not, Cox's opinion is as valid as anyone else's regardless if you believe what he's saying or not, or how well respected he is. It's easy to assume lazy Rooney wasn't doing his "job" and tracking Pirlo, though what if it wasn't his job exclusively and shared among teammates when they were in the Pirlo-zone or rather he was in theirs?

We could share opinion pieces for another 2-3 days on this trivial matter and it still wouldn't really change your or my opinion. Here's one that might bridge the gap. Pirlo was fantastic in both games, and may he continue!

Since we've brought Cox into the discussion, it's fair to mention that he seems to be of the opinion that Milner has better tracking abilities...if this is the new twist to this unfolding debate.

Personally I don't think anyone was really tasked with tracking Pirlo, otherwise someone who can actually do it would probably been given that assignment. Apparently neither did Hodgson, in either game...more on that later....

Cox,
"This, of course, is the problem with use four outright attacking players. Hodgson was previously seen as a solid 4-4-2 man, favouring hard workers in wide positions. This front four was exciting and inventive – and not far off a 4-2-4 at times – but the obvious downside is the lack of balance, and protection for the full-backs. James Milner, for example, would have tracked Darmian perfectly. Hodgson has widely been praised for gambling with young attacking players, but there are risks."

Similarly I'm going to suggest as I have previously, if Pirlo was to be tracked or marked there are probably 10 other players on the team better than lazy Rooney to do so. I don't buy into Rooney being given this task exclusively. I think he was getting yelled at because when he was near Pirlo he wasn't assuming that responsibility very well.

I agree he wasn't doing it well, btw. I've watched the game, he tries to run at Pirlo when he's around him (like everyone else) but there were many other instances in the game he's no where near Pirlo. This alone does not, in the very least, suggest he was given this specific role for any duration during the game.

Even in this game the duties were shared.

Modric isn't a forward, but a midfielder. His proximity on the field would get him in position to do so more often, of course. Following with my point earlier, when he was attacking he would obviously have to abandon any defensive duties assigned to him.

If I'm going to give someone on my team that role, I'd prefer someone better suited to that job, but man marking him means you need to dictate your teams own tactics around his play rather than zonal marking (ironically the name of Cox's site) where the players in that zone assume the responsibility.

England did not man mark Pirlo. Neither in 2012 or 2014. Based on what you wrote before, I think you agree with this. Players in his zone were told to pay more attention to him and unlike 2012, England tried to get at him higher on the pitch.

I think it's simple to understand. Following a player out of your zone pulls your teams shape out of form. Aside from trying to get a few markers on Pirlo high rather than deep in their end, the strategy wasn't all that dissimilar to the 2012. England just came forward more.

To try and pull England more out of form and disrupt their attacking movements and focus on Pirlo, Prandelli had to rotate Pirlo around the pitch a little more than usual.

Then you (England) can't have the same two on him at all times unless you want to ditch your tactics again.

This is what I saw happening. I think that some people might not consider it significant, but I do. It was the reason why Pirlo had more room in this game than Hodgson wanted him to. For me, this was really the only difference.

So if the unmentionable had to switch the ball around from left to right a little more while Pirlo roamed, and hold onto it at other times, something I think he did well, then he did that well. If he was told to create more and put some balls over the top for our forward, then he didn't do that all that well. Knowing what he was told to do is basically the only thing we're debating, right?

Back to Hodgson...

“How are we going to stop Pirlo? What we’re going to do first of all is play better this time than we did then,” Hodgson said.

“What are we going to do this time? First we will play a lot better and we will play with more energy because we will have more energy as it will be the first game in the tournament. We will be even more compact. We’re also going to make certain that Italy have a lot more to concern themselves about with our attacking play, because one of the problems we had in that game is that we weren’t functioning well as an attacking unit. One of our plans this time is to make certain we do a lot more attacking and that Italy find themselves wondering what they’re going to do about people such as Steven Gerrard or Wayne Rooney.”

Only the ones you've presented

***we need a better variety of smileys on this forum***​