Copa América, Chile 2015 - General Thread [R]

Sim, mas pior ainda do que isso, quando se trata de uma final, os lampejos viram apagão.

 

Given that up to the age of 3 no child is able to really follow a team sport, there are thousands and thousands of guys and gals in Argentina who are 25 years old and have never seen their Albiceleste win anything, LOL.

 

I couldn't resist, and I visited the Argentine forum. The atmosphere is one of a funeral, and *finally* these people appeared humble. They are saying - what's the point of going to all these finals and choking? One of them said "if we scrap by and reach the WC final in 2018, we know what will happen." Some of them *finally* started saying that Messi is not the Greatest of All Time and can't hold a candle to Maradona. Some said he should be banned from the National Team at least for a few games, to let the team rebuild without depending on him, because when they need him most, he doesn't deliver. Very different from the arrogance of "Brasil, decime qué se siente." Because indeed, how dare they talk smack against anyone? They haven't won zip in 22 years!!!

 

early in Messi's career he got the "he's not better than Maradona because he doesn't do anything for Argentina"... then he won all of those Ballon D'Or and people stopped bothering him.

I guess it's going to start it up once again.

 

Well, he never really did anything for Argentina in finals and elimination games. Only in earlier games, and even that, very irregularly. Remember, it was only in the middle of his third WC participation that he scored for the NT for the first time in a WC... while Pelé at age 17 was already scoring for Brazil in a WC.

 

Actually I was mistaken, he did have an earlier goal in a WC, then went into a long, long drought.

 

Well he did win a Gold Medal with Argentina in Beijing'08, but that goes to show how little Argentina values that!! While we fired 2 coaches over not winning the Gold Medal!!

 

Visiting their forum after a loss is always a good source of entertainment to me.

But in all seriousness, can't believe all that generation has won is a gold medal. I remember being at the 2007 Copa final and thinking that they would end up winning something together.

 

From what I've seen on their forums (not here, but actual Argentina-based websites), some of them are actually humble and have said things like "we cannot say anything to Brazilians; they've won much in the recent past and we have not."

Despite the rivalry between us and them, what really set me off against them was their fans' disgusting behavior in Brazil last year - verbal and physical assault against our people, getting drunk on the streets, cursing us out, trying to grab Brazilian women who were with their boyfriends or husbands, and their silly little song - a song their own NT sang despite the fact that the Brazilian NT was on the other side of the bracket and could have only met in the final.

Therefore, I celebrated Germany's title win last year, and tonight, I celebrate Chile's.

And on a different note, I will concede that Messi received a horrible foul - that kick to his midsection. But the look on his face when Alexis Sánchez scored the winning PK (with a cavadinha, to add insult to injury) was priceless. A mixture of shock and surprise.

By the way, the guy comes off as strange. I will never question his talent and respect his skills, club accomplishments, and the fact he generally plays clean. But for a player with that kind of unusual talent, he seems to lack that fire and desire that teammates of his (such as Mascherano in his generation and Simeone & Batistuta in the 1990s) had.

 

I thought that Chile won yesterday, I felt an atmosphere was negative between argentinian players and on the bench before the penalties. Messi didn' t look like a leader of the team. The players and the team from Chile seemed to me more positive and friendly between them. I think it's very important.

 

I rather go out in any phase of the competition than lose in a final. The lost in 98 took years to get over.

 

You gotta in a way feel for Mascherano. ..this is the 3rd Copa Final in which he was on the losing end!!

 

We haven't fill the void left by Ronaldo and they haven't adequately replace Batigol/Crespo.

 

None. But what I think he's saying is that Messi needs a bit of Maradona in terms of that something extra.

I lurked in many of their forums (outsider this own) during and after the final vs. Germany last year. Many were furious because he just "walks." They pointed out German players of far inferior talent and his own teammates ran for each football as if their lives depended on it, but once Messi knew the football was more than a few short yards away from him, he'd just stop walking.

The rivalry factor aside, some of those posts really made me realize how our neighbors take this sport perhaps even more seriously than we do. Those posters said "I defended Messi all these years, on every tournament for us he didn't produce while winning in at with Barcelona. We reach a World Cup final for the first time in 24 years, and he just walks? I'll never forgive him!"

Maradona wasn't like this. He stood up and stepped up to the challenge. It is true Maradona had that malandragem that so many of us love to hate in them (the hand goal) but Maradona had that "something else." Messi, for all of his undeniable skill, for some reason, appears not to have that hunger. I'm not saying he doesn't have it - I say he appears not to have it.

 

Indeed.

The advantage that we Brasileiros have had in seeing our NT go through dramatic changes since 2010 is that we've become accustomed to how painful and slow rebuilding can be. We're in a down cycle right now, but when one is down, one can only go up.

I wrote this on this forum after the Germans won the World Cup last year - that Messi's best chance to win it all is behind him. He is still an excellent footballer, but he will be 31 during the Russian tournament, and several of his teammates will be even older and possibly retired from the NT. It's true our neighbors consistently produce solid talent, but other nations will be very competitive as well, and this generation's chances are now behind them. They, like us, will not play the 2017 Confederations Cup, so the only official NT competition before the next Copa América (which will be held in Brazil and I believe we'll win it) will be the 2018 World Cup itself.

When they failed in Korea/Japan, they had to rebuild after Batistuta's retirement, but they were then blessed with a highly talented generation. That generation is now fading.

As for the World Cup, it is always exceedingly difficult to win it. Messi will be then at the start of the twilight of his career. I have no doubts he'll be there and that he'll play well, but that'll be it for him, and without vontade, he isn't going to win it, genetics/muscle fibers asides.

Outside the 1982 generation, the best footballers Brazil had after 1970 all won it. And I'm biased, but I believe Neymar will win it as well - after he grows up a bit more.

 

This, or maybe it is psychological. It's been said that Messi is autistic and clinically diagnosed with PDD (Pervasive Developmental Disorder). Whether true or not, I don't know, because rumors are rumors and his personal medical information is of course confidential. But it would make sense, given the aloof demeanor and lack of very visible emotions. He also has had some huge blockade of some sort, with all those vomiting episodes on the field, and it does seem like he chokes in these very important games with the national team. It seems mental...

 

I was in Brazil at the time, and yes, some of them were despicable, but I got a little better sample, because my son (a young guy in his early 20's) traveled the world recently while in a sabbatical after undergrad and before grad school started, and in Australia he met a young Argentine guy and they traveled together for a while. Then the guy asked if he could stay with my wife's family in Rio for the World Cup. We said yes and he came. My son (who was still in his sabbatical traveling at the time around Europe) flew in from Portugal and I flew in from the US. This Argentine young man was extremely polite and cultured (he was enrolled in MBA), spoke good English and decent Portuguese, and introduced us to other Argentine fans who were of the same extraction who were also in Rio for the Cup. We all had a good time together respectfully teasing each other and these youngsters were delightful. I also have a number of extremely civil Argentine friends and I'm specially grateful to a couple of them who greatly helped me in the past in a time of need. So, like we were discussing earlier, it's a matter of education and of how people are brought up. I'm sure some of the Brazilians would be trouble as well if they traveled to Argentina for a World Cup. I generally like the Argentine people, but of course, people can get out of hand when it's football rivalry, and being jerks with Brazilian women is of course disgusting, so I hear what you're saying.

 

Brazil rebuilding since 2010 has won a title, Argentina powerhouse since 1978 hasn't won anything since 1993.

Guys wake up! You don't need to be winning titles to be considered a contender any longer. Other NT caught up with the old powerhouses, they are no longer made up of amateurs coming to play professionals.

Brazil will get to the next WC once again as favorite that will not change. But I feel we're really close to a surprise WC winner. Just like Greece in the euros.

 

The Portuguese U20 team looks extremely good, so it's not excluded that once these youngsters get three years older by 2018 and adding Cristiano Ronaldo to them, maybe Portugal will be competitive again. Serbia is also likely to do some damage in the future.

 

Kicking a ball on someone's back should be though....