Pretty much exactly my thoughts on the HB (similarly admitting to some partisanship and trying to be fair). I suppose this is a "bigger" question without the actual gloss in the LOTG that it's what is natural for what the player is doing, but I've always thought that was implicit in "unnatural" in the first place. This again seems a collision between C&O and the supposed turning HB into an objective call. If we ask whether the it was a clear and obvious error to not consider this deliberate/biggering I don't think there is any basis whatsoever for VAR to get involved. But we have this pretense that the call is objective that inserts the VAR into this in a more dramatic way. In my opinion, this play is not a HB offense. (And an interesting question of whether a different VAR would have gotten involved if it had been called.) As for what Fisher was thinking, I would imagine that having had the VAR induced PK at the other end, he felt internal pressure to be fair to Mexico on what many would (unfairly) say was similar to the call just a few moments ago. I'm curious what others thought of the first VAR PK--on the BS game thread, there were many arguing it was never a PK and the HB was more of a PK. (As an aside, if we go back before the tinkering of the last few years, this seems to me a call that was an easy no-call in England/US, but called in Latin America.) (As a further aside, this morning's L.A. Times recognized the importance of this match by giving it two paragraphs in its collection of stories from wire feeds . . . .)
Question for the refs, was the Mexico handball off the Weah volley any more innocent than McKenzie's?
I'm trying to remember, is that the one where it should have at least been a corner kick but they gave a goal kick instead?
I think it was. My recollection was that it was an obvious handball BUT that it was outside the penalty area, so not subject to VAR. But I was a little distracted at that moment and only saw one replay. So reserve the right to be wrong on either or both of those assessments!
I'll second your analysis. It was embarrassing that it wasn't a corner because the flight of the ball made it extremely obvious that it was deflected, but VAR isn't supposed to have jurisdiction when it was clearly outside the penalty area. If they gave it a second look, they shut it down after seeing it was 2 yards or so outside the area.
I’m late to the party but watched extended highlights I don’t think the penalty that the US got via VAR was a clear and obvious error. and I think the second penalty only went to VAR because the first one did.
Only just seeing now that AR1 was from... Trinidad & Tobago. So it wasn't even a merging of duos. No Panamanian AR at all. Fascinating. Of course, Pitti and his Panamanian AR were the pair who butchered that very easy offside call a few weeks/months back that was staggeringly wrong.
I didn't have a problem with it not being a HB, but not recognizing the deflection and CK was awful. (And I do think thatif the PK was a HB, so was that.)
This makes me miss the good old days. When are we going to see a referee like him or Marco Rodriguez again?
It would be up to the referee to call it, and that ain't happening IMO. For the VAR, they can only get involved with encroachment into the penalty area when they offending player becomes involved in the play, and that's not the case if the ball enters the goal.
There were plenty of excellent referees in CONCACAF in the "good old days" besides Rodriquez and Batres. Some examples are Mexico had Mario Rubio, Codesal and Brizio, US had Socha, Mauro, Baharmast, Guatemala had Molina, the Escobar brothers, plus many other examples. Any of these would have handled this match very competently. Also the "bench" of other competent referees was quite deep. There doesn't seem to be that level of ability anymore. Is the problem in the training and instruction, or in the confusing ever-evolving LOTG and their interpretations and applications? PH
Would it be practical or feasible to enlist refs from So America to at least do the finals in the Nations or Gold cups?
A bit a of a slap in the face of CONCACAF refs, no? "You aren't good enough to do important games." I don't see any plausible way of this happening unless it was a trade--you do ours, and we'll do yours. But then that would require them to think CONCACAF refs were good enough to do their most important games, and I think a big obstacle with refs there who have been trying to get to their confederation's most important games, which they likely think would be a bigger honor than coming up to CONCACAF to ref. So, no, I don't think it is plausible in the current environment.
What evidence is there that anyone in CONCACAF perceives there to be a such a drastic problem with officiating that it requires a fix beyond standard "education and development?" And what incentive do any of the federations have in bringing in outside referees to officiate the only big games that their own referees have any chance whatsoever of officiating?
Just echoing what I've read here in this forum but I agree with your last sentence. When was the last time a US vs Mex match ended amicably?
I just caught a shot in the 43rd minute of the game where the PK plant foot area was already a mess at that point, but given the obvious attempts to make it worse it seems like it would be wise for someone to go sit on the PK spot as soon as the call is made and especially if there is a VAR delay. It looks like a good place to stretch.
Biased US fan here, and I thought both penalties were absolutely correct, after VAR. First was a clear hip check, not shoulder to shoulder, and in the 2nd McKenzie clearly made himself larger.
Maybe, but I feel like the field, especially with heated tempers, is probably one of the last things on the AR's list to worry about. And even if the AR does catch someone, the damage has been done.
i know which play your thinking of off the Mexican Defender and they awarded a goal kick for Mexico instead of a corner kick. I think that is not a handball. He was jumping and his hand was in a natural position for his jump. I do have issue with the call of goal kick instead of corner kick. I think what happened was the play happened so quick the referee awarded a goal kick instead of guessing corner
None that I am aware of. Obviously not desirable but all I've read in this forum the past few years is, with the exception of a few [US..Mex..etc], how poor the officiating has been in CONCACAF. I haven't done a match in 20 yrs and it's been a struggle to keep up.