Alert: Commissioner Don Garber to Discuss MLS Playoffs and League's Future on Fox Football Fone-In‎

I was pleased to hear how p*ssed Don was at these MLS teams that lose in CCL to teams that are clearly weaker on paper.

I think he understands what damage this does to the league's image.

 

You mean no one supported 12th place FC Dallas during their stretch run, or 11th place and a filled-BMO Toronto FC (both in the "bottom 5" as you say) even though they were only 1 point and a H2H away from getting into the playoffs? Or even 13th place Kansas City, who had 97% capacity at their temporary digs, and still had an outside shot at the playoffs with three games left? Again, you try to separate single table from playoffs, and that's not what most who want to see it are proposing. It's fine to have differing opinions, but don't twist the argument.

Dallas' attendance has been documented all season, and it had little to do with their place in a conference or a single table. And they still fought back to damned-near make it and give their fans something to be happy about this season.

I'm sure RSL fans are saying, "Awesome! We finished fifth in the west!" instead of high-fiving over getting that 8th and final playoff spot overall.

 

Long-Post-Ahead warning...

Put aside for a moment everything you know about sports, everything you take for granted, and just clean the slate for a second.

There are two fundamental things people need to understand about the American tournament concept called a "playoffs":

1. It exists to determine a champion from among multiple entities.
2. Americans absolutely love the concept, and consider it an intrinsic part of sports competition.

It's point #1, especially the italicized part, that is critical to grasp.

Baseball is the simplest example: Once upon a time, there were two separate baseball leagues, American and National. Their schedules were separate and independent; their teams did not play one another during the season. So you wound up with two "best" teams each year. Thus, to determine the country's single best baseball team, the tops from each league would compete in a post-season tournament.

The winner was baseball's best.

Without the multiple-entities part -- without an American and a National league -- the entire rationale for playoffs is gone. There becomes no need for a "post-season" tournament to determine a champion, because the season will have already done that.

If there's just one baseball league, each team playing head-to-head, then the season is the tournament. This is precisely why many baseball fans hated the idea of regular-season interleague play when it was introduced a few years ago: It diluted the World Series' very reason for existence.

A single table in MLS would do the same thing. Without conferences -- without separate entities each producing their own "best" -- the very rationale for a post-season tournament goes away. The season will already have served as the tournament; a "playoffs" would be arbitrary and superfluous.

OK, you say, so go with a single table, render the playoffs superfluous, and get rid of them. Ah ha! But now you're up against point #2: Americans love the concept of playoffs, and indeed consider them essential in sports.

Now you can start to see the position MLS is in.

Yes, in practice, MLS already kind of fakes it, just like the NFL and NBA. The conferences aren't really separate entities -- the teams play each other during the season, in weird asymmetrical schedules. So in practice, it's already kind of arbitrary. But it at least has the appearance of separate entities: Team X won this set of competitions; Team Y won this different set; now we have to hold a tournament to see which one is truly the better team.

The bottom line: With a single table, there is no need for playoffs. And without playoffs, MLS risks losing a big selling point to American sports fans.

 

I'd give Garber high marks on virtually everything he said.

MLS is in good hands.

 

Great post. One additional major point -which Garber touched on tonight indirectly - is that seperate conferences/leagues begin out of geographical necessity. This country is HUGE. It's unreasonable to expect DC United to travel to Seattle, Vancouver, and Portland as many times in a season as they will to Philadelphia or New England.

Playoffs weren't created arbitrarily in this country, they sprang out of the need to determine a champion when partially or highly unbalanced schedules exist.

Single table is never happening for MLS, and there are airtight and completely legitimate reasons for why that is the case.

 

Exactly. And a big part of their allure is that they amount to "finally settling a question": What if these teams had been playing each other all season? Which would have been better? At last we get to find out!

They answer a tantalizing question. They solve a mystery. A single table eliminates that.

 

In which case the Supporter's Shield becomes meaningless. Problem is, it isn't.

 

I agree in part but note extremely important exceptions: college football and college basketball. In the former, the incredibly bizarre situation exists where we simply vote on who the best 2 teams are and have them play each other. That's something that would never be allowed in any other sport. Imagine if we took the MLS Power rankings and simply had the top 2 teams play each other! With the latter, the entire regular season is virtually irrelevant in college basketball because all one has to do to win the conference and make the NCAA tourny is win the conference tourny - and all one has to do to qualify for that in most conferences is exist. Most conferences have a single table for basketball, many play a balanced schedule, and they still have de facto playoffs to determine the champion.

Americans will accept any and all criteria to determine a champion so long as they are told that's how it is done, and provided they are entertained by it. They'll accept people voting on who should be in the championship, they'll accept playoffs even with a single table based on a balanced schedule, they'll accept best 4 out of 7, they'll accept one game winner takes all, they'll even accept first team to score wins, even if the other team never gets to touch the ball (NFL overtime).

 

Americans will like anything ESPN tell them to like. Baaa!

 

I've never quite understood why when the issue of single table comes up, Garber almost always interprets the question as dealing with promotion/relegation or as meaning eliminating the playoffs. How simple would it be to play a balanced schedule and award a league champion on points, then have the top 8 teams go into the playoffs to determine the cup champion. What's so freakin' hard about that??!!

 

Yeah, I remember when ESPN invented playoffs in 1981.

 

i know. it kills me how dismissive garber is about single table because he assumes it means eliminating the playoff format. I'd love to see a single table, I love the playoffs, there is a middle ground. mlsnet already has the playoff standing board which is essentially what many people think the normal standings board should look like.

 

I like single tables. I like divisions and conferences.

I like saying we are the regular season champion. I like saying we are the western division champion.

I don't like saying we are the eastern conference champion when we had to switch conferences to become it.

I don't doubt MLS will continue to have conferences (in reality they are divisions, not conferences, based on how those two concepts work in American sports). But can we dispense with having the playoffs centered on conferences when the teams fighting for the conference championship aren't in the conference? Can't we just let LA be the Western Division champion and Columbus be the Eastern Division champion because they deserve those titles and then have the playoffs 1 v 8, 2 v 7, etc, to determine the MLS champion? That would dispense from New York ever again being the Western champion.

 

Good points but the MLS fan might be different than a NFL or NCAA fan. For example, maybe MLS fans are more likely than an American football to have a cultural background that is focused on a soccer league that is single table (a stretch of an arguement but one that would take deeper analysis to know as fact).

 

Originally I had put forth an argument that soccer is not a typical American sport for several reasons, but I ended up deleting it because it was tangential. My ultimate point is that American sports fans will accept any and all formats - but not all fans will like it. You can't please everyone. They'll accept a single table if that's how the league sets it up (Supporter's Shield is a de facto single table); they'll accept divisions if that's how the league sets it up. Once again consider college sports. The SEC has division (football) and single table (basketball). Both are accepted.

I think one ultimate issue with soccer is people wanting to Americanize it. At what point do we bring in timeouts so people can control the clock (a very American trait when it comes to sports)? I look back "fondly" on the NASL, when soccer was very American - with timeouts, no ties, etc.

Personally, I'm a purist when it comes to this stuff. I don't mind divisions but I do prefer a single table, particularly when the end result is the top 8 teams go to the playoffs regardless of division - it really does render the divisions pointless.

 

The cool thing about Bigsoccer is the thing I am interested in gets highlighted in a thread title. The uncool thing is, unless I have much money and little life, I will not be available to listen to Fox Football Fone-in, unless I am lucky about timing. So, could those of you with a great life and fortunate timing provide a running link for those of us with a fantastible life that does not happen to include Direct TV and Tivo or whatever the hell you crazy kids are doing these days?

 

It is meant sarcastically, but you are right. NASCAR was a marketing wonder, and part of that was getting ESPN to buy into them. Advertising, discussion, etc were all featured on the big ESPN shows. MLS is lucky to get a highlight. Of all the things mentioned in this thread, getting ESPN to help MLS simply become more relevant is more important than almost all of them.

 

For the poster(s) that were talking about fans not fans not supporting the #13 team in a league without the threat of relegation, its all about numbers and perception.

Sure, reporters and BS posters pay attention to the statistic that 6 teams were competing for the last 2 playoffs spots, but that number sticks out in a bad way in a single table. Instead, you would be talking about teams 7-12 competing for the last 2 spots. No one wants to think about the 4th worst team in the league potentially making the playoffs.

However, with conferences, you're looking at teams 3-5 (and #6 in this crazy season) competing for playoff positions, and that is what would better impact the casual fans, who make up the bulk of attendance and viewership numbers.

 

and yet there will be a completely balanced schedule next season. hmm.

 

'next season' is key here. how bout 2011 and beyond?

 

SUCH A GREAT POST. It is something that never ever ever ever gets brought up but has a strong impact on many of the issues being discussed.

 

I am looking for transcript. If there is one, please do let me know where I can find it. Keep in mind that I can't hear, so listening to the interivew is not a option for me. Thanks.

 

This is where i disagree with you. To me it is nothing but a trophy awarded to the team with the most points at the end of the season. Just like the Presidents Trophy given to the NHL team with the most points at the end. The biggest difference being that a Champions league spot is awarded for a supporters shield while there is nothing similar in hockey.